Donglegate! The unfortunate progeny of Elevatorgate.

[JimC]

Well, given I responded "But, to a degree, perhaps yes", I think I did indeed comprehend...

Or not. Re-read this slowly:

Muslims are self-proclaimed members of a group with a collective ethos and (supposedly) a set of beliefs in common. Muslim terrorists invariably justify their barbarities as being in the service of Islam. If other muslims disagree with their actions, but say nothing, they are effectively allowing a minority to categorise their shared group as barbaric.

Like catholics, anglicans, protestants etc are tarred with the same brush as is the Westboro Baptist Church because we don't hear the former sustainedly and strongly disassociate themselves from the latter?

If you still don't get it, I'll be happy to reword this exchange to help you out of your comprehension problem.

And I basically said that, yes, they are tarred with the same brush, with some qualifiers based on the severity of the crimes...

Also, Islam is somewhat more monolithic than christianity. Catholics don't really feel the need to apologise for Baptists...

[Hermit]

I basically said that, yes, they are tarred with the same brush

Christians are? Citation needed.

Also, Islam is somewhat more monolithic than christianity.

Citation needed.

[JimC]

I basically said that, yes, they are tarred with the same brush

Christians are? Citation needed.

Also, Islam is somewhat more monolithic than christianity.

Citation needed.

I don't need citations, I'm not doing anything else other than offering an opinion that members of a religion need to take responsibility for the actions of their more feral members.

If you don't agree, tough shit.

[Hermit]

I basically said that, yes, they are tarred with the same brush

Christians are? Citation needed.

Also, Islam is somewhat more monolithic than christianity.

Citation needed.

I don't need citations, I'm not doing anything else other than offering an opinion that members of a religion need to take responsibility for the actions of their more feral members.

If you don't agree, tough shit.

Lacking any kind of factual backup, your opinions are literally ex recto, and therefore full of it.

[Audley Strange]

Jim, I may be wrong but I think that Hermit's point is that there is public and vocal condemnation of the Westboro Baptists from Christians and others, across the board. They are reviled by almost everyone. Islam isn't a monolith in the way Christianity is a toppled monolith, that of Rome and it's reformation rubble, and it's extremists are at war with Islam itself, trying in fact to turn it into a specifically radical and sectarian Monolith.

Islam is very like Feminism in a way, it has no specific central command and thus has all sorts of weirdos on it's fringe. Christianity? The weirdos are mainstream.

[Robert_S]

Jim, I may be wrong but I think that Hermit's point is that there is public and vocal condemnation of the Westboro Baptists from Christians and others, across the board. They are reviled by almost everyone. Islam isn't a monolith in the way Christianity is a toppled monolith, that of Rome and it's reformation rubble, and it's extremists are at war with Islam itself, trying in fact to turn it into a specifically radical and sectarian Monolith.

Islam is very like Feminism in a way, it has no specific central command and thus has all sorts of weirdos on it's fringe. Christianity? The weirdos are mainstream.

IIRC, there was a bit in an Adam Curtis film about huge anti-extremist rallies in the ME.

Seems a few countries also sent all their imprisoned whackjobs off to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan in hope of helping them get their 72 raisins.

It worked out worse than when Europe decided to send their religious nuts off to the New World.

[JimC]

Jim, I may be wrong but I think that Hermit's point is that there is public and vocal condemnation of the Westboro Baptists from Christians and others, across the board. They are reviled by almost everyone. Islam isn't a monolith in the way Christianity is a toppled monolith, that of Rome and it's reformation rubble, and it's extremists are at war with Islam itself, trying in fact to turn it into a specifically radical and sectarian Monolith.

Islam is very like Feminism in a way, it has no specific central command and thus has all sorts of weirdos on it's fringe. Christianity? The weirdos are mainstream.

I agree to a degree, although in comparison, Westborough don't actually kill people, islamic terrorists do, and thus they deserve stronger condemnation from the start...

I still feel that it is reasonable to expect a bigger condemnation of islamic terrorism from "moderate" mulsim commentators that actually occurs...

[klr]

Jim, I may be wrong but I think that Hermit's point is that there is public and vocal condemnation of the Westboro Baptists from Christians and others, across the board. They are reviled by almost everyone. Islam isn't a monolith in the way Christianity is a toppled monolith, that of Rome and it's reformation rubble, and it's extremists are at war with Islam itself, trying in fact to turn it into a specifically radical and sectarian Monolith.

Islam is very like Feminism in a way, it has no specific central command and thus has all sorts of weirdos on it's fringe. Christianity? The weirdos are mainstream.

I agree to a degree, although in comparison, Westborough don't actually kill people, islamic terrorists do, and thus they deserve stronger condemnation from the start...

I still feel that it is reasonable to expect a bigger condemnation of islamic terrorism from "moderate" mulsim commentators that actually occurs...

It could of course be the case that there is more condemnation taking place than we are aware of. Perhaps it's just not reported that widely in "the West". Who knows?

[JimC]

Jim, I may be wrong but I think that Hermit's point is that there is public and vocal condemnation of the Westboro Baptists from Christians and others, across the board. They are reviled by almost everyone. Islam isn't a monolith in the way Christianity is a toppled monolith, that of Rome and it's reformation rubble, and it's extremists are at war with Islam itself, trying in fact to turn it into a specifically radical and sectarian Monolith.

Islam is very like Feminism in a way, it has no specific central command and thus has all sorts of weirdos on it's fringe. Christianity? The weirdos are mainstream.

I agree to a degree, although in comparison, Westborough don't actually kill people, islamic terrorists do, and thus they deserve stronger condemnation from the start...

I still feel that it is reasonable to expect a bigger condemnation of islamic terrorism from "moderate" mulsim commentators that actually occurs...

It could of course be the case that there is more condemnation taking place than we are aware of. Perhaps it's just not reported that widely in "the West". Who knows?

Fair point, and you do get some from islamic organisations in Oz, for example. But it always sounds very muted...

[Hermit]

Jim, I may be wrong but I think that Hermit's point is that there is public and vocal condemnation of the Westboro Baptists from Christians and others, across the board.

Sorry, no, that was not my point, so I guess I expressed it too obtusely. Let me try again:

If the (alleged) lack of sustained and vocal protests regarding Islamic extremism tars non-extremist Muslims with the same brush as those extremists they are said to fail to vociferously protest against, why does same not apply on the Christian side? I have yet to hear, see or read about anywhere near a significant number of christian clergy and other spokespeople as well as ordinary lay-persons speaking against apologists, denialists , and suppressors of the truth, among whom are bishops, catholic cardinals and even the previous pope, regarding the sex abuse endemic among their institutions, let alone attempt to organise a public demonstration march.

Despite this lack of upheaval inside the christian churches I cannot detect popular sentiment along the lines that the mass of the various organisations are supporters or even sympathisers of the perpetrators of such sexual abuse. People, our extremely moderate JimC included, need to get a bit of perspective on that matter.

[JimC]

Jim, I may be wrong but I think that Hermit's point is that there is public and vocal condemnation of the Westboro Baptists from Christians and others, across the board.

Sorry, no, that was not my point, so I guess I expressed it too obtusely. Let me try again:

If the (alleged) lack of sustained and vocal protests regarding Islamic extremism tars non-extremist Muslims with the same brush as those extremists they are said to fail to vociferously protest against, why does same not apply on the Christian side? I have yet to hear, see or read about anywhere near a significant number of christian clergy and other spokespeople as well as ordinary lay-persons speaking against apologists, denialists , and suppressors of the truth, among whom are bishops, catholic cardinals and even the previous pope, regarding the sex abuse endemic among their institutions, let alone attempt to organise a public demonstration march.

Despite this lack of upheaval inside the christian churches I cannot detect popular sentiment along the lines that the mass of the various organisations are supporters or even sympathisers of the perpetrators of such sexual abuse. People, our extremely moderate JimC included, need to get a bit of perspective on that matter.

I thought that I had indicated that the christian side should also feel a degree of responsibility for uncivilised actions which are claimed to be motivated by Christian values, such as Westborough, but I also made it clear that the scale is very different. The actions of Westborough, however unpleasant they are, fall well short of the actions committed in the name of jihad. So, any condemnation by the mainstream should be proportional to the scale of the barbarism involved...

As far as the sex abuse issue in the catholic church, of course it should have been condemned (and in fact rooted out) much earlier, instead of being actively facilitated by the hierarchy of the church; that should go without saying. All analysts, and the bulk of the people within the church put the blame fairly and squarely where it belongs; on the church hierarchy trying to hush up criminal activity that its own structures helped to create.

However, there is a critical difference; in the case of the Westborough baptists, and islamic jihad terrorists, the actions are directly motivated by their absolutist take on religious principles. Fellow espousers of the shared principles should, IMO, take up the burden of attacking those who allow those same principles to justify barbaric behaviour. Your average kiddy-fiddler priest doesn't justify his transgressions by an appeal to the bible...

[Hermit]

I thought that I had indicated that the christian side should also feel a degree of responsibility for uncivilised actions which are claimed to be motivated by Christian values, such as Westborough...

If you had, I missed it. Either way, I disagree that middle-of-the-road religious types should feel a degree of responsibility for the actions of extremists who claim to act in the name of true (insert the name of religion here). If it could be shown that suicide bombers and sexual predators and their kin could be influenced by popular sentiment, I'd certainly change my mind on that.

You still seem to be skirting right around the point of my central contention.

Also, while I'm not overly interested in the proceedings of self indulgent, myopic, and neurotic navelgazers, it might be fitting to remark that we seem to have completely abandoned the thread's topic ("donglegate") quite some time ago.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

My favorite challenge to "middle-of-the-road" types is "set you own house in order".

[JimC]

I thought that I had indicated that the christian side should also feel a degree of responsibility for uncivilised actions which are claimed to be motivated by Christian values, such as Westborough...

If you had, I missed it. Either way, I disagree that middle-of-the-road religious types should feel a degree of responsibility for the actions of extremists who claim to act in the name of true (insert the name of religion here). If it could be shown that suicide bombers and sexual predators and their kin could be influenced by popular sentiment, I'd certainly change my mind on that.

You still seem to be skirting right around the point of my central contention.

Also, while I'm not overly interested in the proceedings of self indulgent, myopic, and neurotic navelgazers, it might be fitting to remark that we seem to have completely abandoned the thread's topic ("donglegate") quite some time ago.

It is quite a de-rail, isn't it... Pappa started it, from memory...

It's interesting that you are linking whether any responsibility should be felt to the very pragmatic test of whether this will make any difference. I often favour pragmatism in many areas, but I contend that this debate involves a question of ethics. Adults who are committed members of a religion have voluntarily chosen to belong to a group with a shared ethos, which usually involves, in some form or another, being true to the guiding principles of that religion.

In the case of christianity, an argument can be made that "loving one's fellow man" is as close to an overarching ethical imperative as you're going to get. Committed christians, on viewing the activities of those arsehole baptists, should be saying loudly "not in my name" if theu want to maintain a vestige of internal moral consistency... Otherwise, become an atheist, and adopt any ethical principles that you fucking want... :twisted:

On the other hand, one could contend that, in reality, given the writings in the Koran, Islam is not in any way a "religion of peace". Given that, perhaps the jihadists are in fact a truer representation of the essence of islam, and the apathetic majority of muslims are just lazy in the practice of their faith...

In that case, let's shower them with the materialism and decadence of the West, and corrupt them from within...

[JimC]

My favorite challenge to "middle-of-the-road" types is "set you own house in order".

Already done. Painting finished, house cleaned and tidy, garden neat. What more do you fucking want?