Guns Used.....cont

[Warren Dew]

That same principle means that, if someone is attacking me with a non lethal tool, like his fist, or a club, then my defense should be sufficient to achieve the purpose of self defense, but no more. Here in NZ, which is a nation with sane self defense laws, you will be charged and very likely sent to prison for using excess force, such as a gun.

Here in the U.S., there are fewer people murdered with rifles than with clubs, and fewer with clubs than with bare hands. I guess rifles must be a "non lethal tool" by your definition.

[Jason]

I'm sure Gallstones doesn't like my being protective of her, but we've known each other for a while and Aspire is being a cunt.

[Robert_S]

BTW aspire and blind groper and mrjonno et al, yes it is about me and what I want. I don't care about what you want. You are irrelevant to my interests and desires. There is nothing you can do about that.

I would never dream of attempting to change someone so self-absorbed as your good self, Gallstones. But it is symptomatic of your behaviour, and unsurprising, that you think you are the centre of my universe. What is surprising, however, is that even with your monumental self-regard you remain so defensive and needy.

Aspire, I've never seen you debate an issue. All the posts I've seen from are aimed at people rather than ideas. You do seem to be thinking an awful lot about Gallstones too, doing personality analyses and all that. Very interesting...

[Gallstones]

BTW aspire and blind groper and mrjonno et al, yes it is about me and what I want. I don't care about what you want. You are irrelevant to my interests and desires. There is nothing you can do about that.

I would never dream of attempting to change someone so self-absorbed as your good self, Gallstones. But it is symptomatic of your behaviour, and unsurprising, that you think you are the centre of my universe. What is surprising, however, is that even with your monumental self-regard you remain so defensive and needy.

It is MY universe and you are a non-person who tries too hard not to be a non-person. Personhood won't come to you on the internet. I would pity you if I gave a shit.

[Blind groper]

Here in the U.S., there are fewer people murdered with rifles than with clubs, and fewer with clubs than with bare hands. I guess rifles must be a "non lethal tool" by your definition.

In the USA, 50% of all murders are with hand guns. Many fewer with rifles, I admit, but so what? A hand gun is still a firearm, and it is a big, big killer.

[Gallstones]

Here in the U.S., there are fewer people murdered with rifles than with clubs, and fewer with clubs than with bare hands. I guess rifles must be a "non lethal tool" by your definition.

In the USA, 50% of all murders are with hand guns. Many fewer with rifles, I admit, but so what? A hand gun is still a firearm, and it is a big, big killer.

Want.




America's Gun Problem is not a Race Problem.
David Frumm
01.16.13
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/15/opinion/f ... le_sidebar

Massacres such as Newtown are horrifying and heart-rending. They are also nothing like the typical American gun murder.

The typical murder has one victim, not many. The typical murder is committed with a handgun, not a rifle. And in the typical murder, both the perpetrator and the victim are young black men. Blacks are six times as likely as whites to be the victim of a homicide. Blacks are seven times as likely to commit a homicide.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm

A writer I greatly admire, Rod Dreher, an independent-minded conservative, gives voice to such feelings in an article posted this weekend on the American Conservative website. Dreher expresses himself forcefully and frankly. That frankness should be welcomed, because the more clearly a mistaken idea is put, the faster we can reach a better understanding.

Dreher wrote:

"Yesterday the Baton Rouge Advocate published a lengthy analysis of the 2012 murder stats in the city. Take a look at this PDF of one of the inside pages. Last year, 83 people died by homicide in Baton Rouge. Of that number, 87% were black, and 87% were male. Two-thirds had been in trouble with the law before, and one-third had been in trouble with the law for drugs. The median age of victims: 26.

"Of the perpetrators, the median age was 22. Get this: 96% of them were black, and 90% were male. Almost two-thirds had previous arrests. One out of four had a drug record.

"Most of the murders took place in the poorest parts of the city.

"What can we learn from these statistics? That murder in Baton Rouge is almost entirely about young black men from the poor part of town killing other young black men from the poor part of town. It's mostly a matter of thugs killing thugs."

If you look at the world that way, gun control must seem a pointless diversion from the real problem: not guns, but one particular group of gun owners. Somebody else's problem. But life is not so neatly separated.

[Blind groper]

So, Gallstones.
Do you believe that a black guy killing a black guy is OK, because he is black?

The fact that blacks are over-represented in murder statistics does not alter the simple fact that hand guns are the cause of the massive homicide stats in the USA. Here in NZ, we have a higher percentage of dark colored people than you have in the USA. We have a higher rate of violent crime. But one fifth of the murders. Simple reason : no hand guns, and no pathological gun culture.

But, of course, to gun loving Americans, a murder in which perpetrator and victim are black is OK.

Of course, it helps your statistics that Baton Rouge is chosen, where over half the population is black. That is cherry picking.

[JimC]

Certainly, in rural Australia, rifles and shotguns are very useful tools, to control feral pests and put down injured farm animals. Farmers will certainly have a bolt action .22, they may often have a .243 or .270 with a scope as well.

What they don't need is pistols and semi-automatic assault rifles...

[FBM]

Interesting how our perspectives vary. Where I grew up, a pistol was the go-to for farm pests.

[Blind groper]

Interesting how our perspectives vary. Where I grew up, a pistol was the go-to for farm pests.

It is also the preferred weapon for murders.

[Rum]

Gun noise/safety tip!

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

[MrJonno]

So, what crimes may be perpetrated against you without you being permitted to defend yourself, pray tell?

Against you or your property?

Any response to a crime against your property is never going to be self defence by its very defintion, its possible it could be legal but sure isnt self defence

If a policeman (never mind a civilian) sees a burgular carrying a TV set out of a house and hits him with a baton (forget about drawing a gun) then its assault simple as that.

Any more force than simply grabbing someone unless they are a direct threat to a person is assault (again doesnt matter if its a civilian or a policeman).

The golden rule is do not escalate the level of violence, if that means a criminal temporary getting away so be it thats what insurance and CCTV cameras are for

[Svartalf]

Certainly, in rural Australia, rifles and shotguns are very useful tools, to control feral pests and put down injured farm animals. Farmers will certainly have a bolt action .22, they may often have a .243 or .270 with a scope as well.

What they don't need is pistols and semi-automatic assault rifles...

Assault rifles are autofire, or at least burst fire, capable, or they are not assault rifles.
a semi auto rifle is another species.

[JimC]

So, what crimes may be perpetrated against you without you being permitted to defend yourself, pray tell?

Against you or your property?

Any response to a crime against your property is never going to be self defence by its very defintion, its possible it could be legal but sure isnt self defence

If a policeman (never mind a civilian) sees a burgular carrying a TV set out of a house and hits him with a baton (forget about drawing a gun) then its assault simple as that.

Any more force than simply grabbing someone unless they are a direct threat to a person is assault (again doesnt matter if its a civilian or a policeman).

The golden rule is do not escalate the level of violence, if that means a criminal temporary getting away so be it thats what insurance and CCTV cameras are for

Well, gunning down the burglar without warning would be OTT, but if a criminal resists arrest, then an officer of the law is entitled to use whatever force is required. One would hope that good training protocols would keep the violence to the minimum necessary, but no one should pretend that violence is sometimes perfectly legitimate.

[Svartalf]

How about citizen's arrest? like you arresting your burglar?)