Guns Used.....cont

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Seth
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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Seth » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:48 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:
Seth wrote:
Clinton Huxley wrote:"millions of instances of armed self-defence in the US every year"? So, millions of attempted attacks, every year? Blimey. Dodgy place, the US.
As many as two million, as few as 800,000 (according the the Department of Justice)
And the US is not as dodgy as the UK when it comes to violent crime, not by half. The violent crime rate in the UK is twice what our violent crime rate is, and ours has been cut in half in the last 10 years.
Approx 600 murders a year in the UK, 12000 a year in the US. And what counts as a violent crime for the stats differs.
The US is a much larger country with 300 million people, so yes there are going to be more murders. And the violent crime stats are not significantly different. Splitting hairs is just evading the truth.

You see, the video above demonstrates that the PER CAPITA violent crime rate in the UK is twice what it is in the US, which statistic corrects for population.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by MrJonno » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:50 pm

Consideirng the US doesnt even record at a national level someone punching/shoving someone else which is 99% of all violent crime I doubt that very much
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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Seth » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:57 pm

MrJonno wrote:Consideirng the US doesnt even record at a national level someone punching/shoving someone else which is 99% of all violent crime I doubt that very much
First, I'd like to know where you got your "99%" factoid. I suspect you're going to need to wash it off and disinfect it since I'm certain that it was produced from your rectum.

Second, you're wrong, again, as usual. The US does record someone "punching/shoving someone else" if it results in a police call for service. It's recorded as "Other-Assaults-Simple, Not Aggravated."

The following is from the UCR Handbook, which is the police officer's guide to classifying offenses on the mandatory UCR report.

Read it and weep. You lose again .
Other
Assaults—Simple, Not Aggravated (4e)
The category Other Assaults—Simple, Not Aggravated (4e) includes all assaults which do not involve the use of a firearm, knife, cutting instrument, or other dangerous weapon and in which the victim did not sustain serious or aggravated injuries. Simple assault is not a Part I offense—it is a Part II offense but is collected under 4e as a quality control matter and for the purpose of looking at total assault violence.
Agencies must classify as simple assault such offenses as assault and battery, injury caused by culpable negligence, intimidation, coercion, and all attempts to commit these offenses. Under certain circumstances, offenses of disorderly conduct, domestic violence, or affray must be classified as simple assault. (For more information about Other Assaults as a Part II offense, see page 139.)
The following scenarios illustrate incidents known to law enforcement that reporting agencies must classify as Other Assaults—Simple, Not Aggravated (4e):
11.
Several bar patrons were watching a football game on television. The supporters of the two teams exchanged heated words that led to a fist fight. The bartender called the police. None of the participants cooperated, so the police could not determine who started the fight. The police arrested six patrons who had suffered bruises and minor cuts and charged them with affray.
12.
A married couple was arguing about financial problems. The husband slapped his wife and left the house. The wife followed him, and they continued their argument. The police responded to a call by a neighbor. The wife told them that her husband slapped her. The police arrested the husband for domestic violence.
13.
An employee of a local retail establishment received numerous e-mail messages at work from her ex-boyfriend, against whom she had a restraining order. The e-mail messages contained sexually offensive material and threats of violence to the employee; she turned them over to the police.
14.
Police responded to a reported fight at a residence. Upon arrival, they discovered a man with a bruise around one eye. The man said that his son, aged 17, had struck him during an argument. The boy admitted to striking his father and apologized. The police documented the incident but did not arrest anyone at the scene because the father did not wish to press charges.
15.
Two men were waiting in a line to enter a nightclub. One man tried to bully the other man into giving up his place in line by threatening to punch him in the face. Refusing to be intimidated, the man reported the threat to the nightclub’s bouncer who called the police. The police cited the bully but did not arrest anyone at the scene.
Aids to Classifying Assaults
Careful consideration of the following factors should assist reporting agencies in classifying assaults:
1.
The type of weapon employed or the use of an object as a weapon
2.
The seriousness of the injury
3.
The intent of the assailant to cause serious injury 26 Uniform Crime Reporting Handbook, 2004
Often, the weapon used or the extent of the injury sustained will be the deciding factor in distinguishing aggravated from simple assault. In only a limited number of instances should it be necessary for the agency to examine the intent of the assailant.
Prosecutorial policy in a jurisdiction must not dictate an agency’s classification of an assault. Reporting agencies must examine and classify assaults according to the standard UCR definitions, regardless of whether they are termed misdemeanors or felonies by local definitions.
Aggravated assault is a troublesome crime to classify. If a number Often, the weapon of persons are involved in a dispute or disturbance and law enforce-
used or the extent of
ment investigation cannot distinguish the aggressors from the victims, the reporting agency must count the number of persons assaulted as the injury sustained the number of offenses. In such circumstances, assault classifica-will be the deciding tions may require agencies to identify and report both aggravated and factor in distinguish-simple assaults within the same crime scenario. Additionally, multiple
ing aggravated from
types of weapons may be used during the commission of the assaults.
Occasionally, classifying offenses in this category will involve reporting simple assault.
offenses in two or more subcategories when reporting the assaults.
The following scenario offers an example of a multiple-offense situation in which some of the offenses must be classified as a simple assault and others as aggravated assault:
16. During a confrontation between two groups of people, a fight occurred during which several
of the participants were injured. None of the combatants were cooperative, and all claimed
to be innocent. It was unclear to police who was responsible for which assault. The police
arrested eight persons, five of whom were severely beaten and in need of emergency medical
treatment.
Explanation: To report this crime to the UCR Program, law enforcement must report a total of eight assaults. Even though all the victims were not known, it was known that five persons
were severely beaten. Therefore, reporting agencies must classify five offenses as Aggravated Assault—Hands, Fists, Feet, etc.—Aggravated Injury (4d) and three offenses as Other Assaults—Simple, Not Aggravated (4e).
The following scenario offers an example of a multiple-offense situation in which offenses must be classified in two aggravated assault subcategories:
17. Police responding to a disturbance call found a juvenile gang fight in progress. The participants
escaped, except for seven youths who suffered injuries. None would cooperate, and the police could not determine who started the fight. Three gang members were cut severely with knives. The remaining four suffered broken bones from being beaten with clubs. The police arrested the combatants who were under the age of 18 on felonious assault charges.
Explanation: A total of seven assault offenses must be reported: three offenses classified as Aggravated Assault—Knife or Cutting Instrument (4b) and four offenses classified as Aggravated Assault—Other Dangerous Weapon (4c). Uniform Crime Reporting Handbook, 2004 27
Note example 15, which is merely a threat without any actual physical contact. It's classified as a simple assault, not aggravated.

Too bad for you.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by MrJonno » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:48 pm

The US only has national records of felony assaults, ie the vast majority are not collected and published at a national level.

The lowest level of violence the FBI deals with is 'aggravated assault' considering people punching each and pushing each other is as common as sneezing in any country. Trying to compare such things is completely meaningless.

The only real crime that can be accurately compared is body counts, even trying to compare rape is pointless as the defintion varies, as does the reporting level and conviction rate

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... lent-crime
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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Tero » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:26 pm

interesting points on narrative vs. statistics
http://www.amazon.com/forum/science/ref ... 5AZO8SVSKW

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Seth » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:46 am

This just in:
TheBlaze


Crime
Gun Owner Shames Knife-Wielding Robber: ‘Just Leave Your Knife Here and Leave’… and He Does!
Feb. 7, 2013 7:28pm Jason Howerton


A knife-wielding criminal attempted to hold up a convenience store in Millcreek, Utah on Monday, but left with no money and no dignity. After the robber pulled out his knife and demanded the contents in the register, the store owner said “no,” drew his handgun and generously offered the crook the chance to run.

The robbery suspect, identified as 28-year-old Mexican national Luis Guiterrez Gonzales entered the Tesoro convenience store at around 11:47 a.m. Monday.
Gun Owner Shames Knife Wielding Robber: Just Leave Your Knife Here and Leave

Ahmed Nazir (KSL-TV)

“He just walked all the way over here, pulled out his knife and said, ‘Hey, open the register and give me your money.’ I thought, ‘Wow,’ ” the store owner and clerk, Ahmed Nazir, said.

He then told the crook bluntly, “no… I’m not going to do that.” The next thing the criminal saw was the barrel of a .45 cal handgun.

“I pulled out my gun and I said, ‘Just leave your knife here and leave the store.’ And he left,” Nazir added.

Gonzales gladly fled the scene of the crime. He even left his knife with Nazir as he requested.

“Nazir called police, who found Gonzales moments later at a Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant,” KSL-TV reports. He was arrested on investigation for one count of aggravated robbery, a felony.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Jason » Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:44 am

And again...
LOS ANGELES — A fired police officer who threatened to bring "warfare" to the Los Angeles Police Department went on a shooting rampage that left a policeman and two others dead and set off an extraordinary manhunt Thursday that put Southern California on edge, led hair-trigger officers to mistakenly shoot innocent citizens and forced police to guard their own.

The search for Christopher Dorner had three states and Mexico on alert before shifting Thursday afternoon to the snowy mountains around Big Bear Lake, about 80 miles east of Los Angeles, where police found his burned-out pickup truck.

San Bernardino County Sheriff John McMahon said officers were going door to door looking for him, and that a SWAT team was providing added security to those in the community. Schools were put on lockdown while investigators examined the vehicle and spread out across the area.

"He could be anywhere at this point, and that's why we're searching door to door," McMahon said.

Throughout the day, thousands of heavily armed officers patrolled highways throughout Southern California, while some stood guard outside the homes of people police say Dorner vowed to attack in a rant posted online. Electronic billboards, which usually alert motorists about the commute, urged them to call 911 if they saw him.

"I will bring unconventional and asymmetrical warfare" to Los Angeles Police Department officers, on or off duty, said the manifesto. It also asserted: "Unfortunately, I will not be alive to see my name cleared. That's what this is about, my name. A man is nothing without his name."

Dorner, 33, had several weapons including an assault rifle, said police Chief Charlie Beck, who urged him to surrender at a press conference held amid heightened security in an underground room at police headquarters.

"Of course he knows what he's doing; we trained him. He was also a member of the Armed Forces," he said. "It is extremely worrisome and scary."

The nearly 10,000-member LAPD dispatched officers to protect more than 40 potential targets, including police officers and their families. The department also pulled officers from motorcycle duty, fearing they would make for easy targets.
.. wait a second..

Dorner, 33, had several weapons including an assault rifle, said police Chief Charlie Beck, who urged him to surrender at a press conference held amid heightened security in an underground room at police headquarters.

"Of course he knows what he's doing; we trained him. He was also a member of the Armed Forces," he said. "It is extremely worrisome and scary."

The nearly 10,000-member LAPD dispatched officers to protect more than 40 potential targets, including police officers and their families. The department also pulled officers from motorcycle duty, fearing they would make for easy targets.

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Seth » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:44 am

Făkünamę wrote:And again...
LOS ANGELES — A fired police officer who threatened to bring "warfare" to the Los Angeles Police Department went on a shooting rampage that left a policeman and two others dead and set off an extraordinary manhunt Thursday that put Southern California on edge, led hair-trigger officers to mistakenly shoot innocent citizens and forced police to guard their own.

The search for Christopher Dorner had three states and Mexico on alert before shifting Thursday afternoon to the snowy mountains around Big Bear Lake, about 80 miles east of Los Angeles, where police found his burned-out pickup truck.

San Bernardino County Sheriff John McMahon said officers were going door to door looking for him, and that a SWAT team was providing added security to those in the community. Schools were put on lockdown while investigators examined the vehicle and spread out across the area.

"He could be anywhere at this point, and that's why we're searching door to door," McMahon said.

Throughout the day, thousands of heavily armed officers patrolled highways throughout Southern California, while some stood guard outside the homes of people police say Dorner vowed to attack in a rant posted online. Electronic billboards, which usually alert motorists about the commute, urged them to call 911 if they saw him.

"I will bring unconventional and asymmetrical warfare" to Los Angeles Police Department officers, on or off duty, said the manifesto. It also asserted: "Unfortunately, I will not be alive to see my name cleared. That's what this is about, my name. A man is nothing without his name."

Dorner, 33, had several weapons including an assault rifle, said police Chief Charlie Beck, who urged him to surrender at a press conference held amid heightened security in an underground room at police headquarters.

"Of course he knows what he's doing; we trained him. He was also a member of the Armed Forces," he said. "It is extremely worrisome and scary."

The nearly 10,000-member LAPD dispatched officers to protect more than 40 potential targets, including police officers and their families. The department also pulled officers from motorcycle duty, fearing they would make for easy targets.
.. wait a second..

Dorner, 33, had several weapons including an assault rifle, said police Chief Charlie Beck, who urged him to surrender at a press conference held amid heightened security in an underground room at police headquarters.

"Of course he knows what he's doing; we trained him. He was also a member of the Armed Forces," he said. "It is extremely worrisome and scary."

The nearly 10,000-member LAPD dispatched officers to protect more than 40 potential targets, including police officers and their families. The department also pulled officers from motorcycle duty, fearing they would make for easy targets.
Hm...Let's see...deranged, murderous ex-LA cop on the loose (BTW, you should find and read his manifesto, where you'll discover that his targets are all members of the LAPD and their families, part of a grudge he has regarding corruption in the LAPD and his being fired from the force) with many weapons, including a .50 BMG rifle.

Now, what items would I like to have in my possession should I come across this person by accident and for some reason he decides I'm his enemy too?

Poseys?

A cell phone to dial 911?

Joe Biden's phone number?

A can of pepper spray?

A Bible?

Barack Obama's Secret Service protection detail?

No...I think not. Well, except perhaps for the Secret Service detail, that would be nice as an adjunct to what I think would like to have available to me, which is:

[REDACTED FOR SECURITY REASONS]
...and a bunch of accessories including numerous 30 round magazines and a couple of thousand rounds of ammunition for each weapon.

Yeah, that's what I want to have if I encounter any armed deranged killer. Any or all of the above.

Oh, wait...never mind, I've got what I need to protect myself.

You, on the other hand, are completely and totally fucked.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Jason » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:07 am

Too bad for all those innocents the cops shot eh? Including those two women who were in their car.

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Kristie » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:09 am

"Redacted for security reasons"?
Once again, paranoid much?

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by sandinista » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:04 am

:funny:
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Clinton Huxley » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:13 am

So, to clarify, according to Seth, the US has roughly 20 times as many murders as the UK, despite only having 5 times the population, because of its greater surface area. Of course! Guns don't kill people, geography does! I expect Obama to introduce legislation banning the square mile immediately.
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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Seth » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:05 pm

Făkünamę wrote:Too bad for all those innocents the cops shot eh? Including those two women who were in their car.
You mean the two women who were shot by panicky cops?

Oh, wait, all those cops have guns and body armor don't they?

So why should I be denied the same tools of personal security?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Seth » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:06 pm

Kristie wrote:"Redacted for security reasons"?
Once again, paranoid much?
Not according to my shrink.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Seth » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:10 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:So, to clarify, according to Seth, the US has roughly 20 times as many murders as the UK, despite only having 5 times the population, because of its greater surface area. Of course! Guns don't kill people, geography does! I expect Obama to introduce legislation banning the square mile immediately.
Of course guns kill people. Sometimes it's people who don't need to be killed who are killed by criminals, other times it's people who do need to be killed by law-abiding citizens. More often though, it's criminals who are prevented from committing crimes by law-abiding citizens with firearms.

Which is why our violent crime rate is half of that of the UK, and is going down.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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