Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

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Coito ergo sum
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Re: Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:04 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:I'm liberal...
:spray:
One -- liberals are not the same thing as left. I hear objections from Leftists like Sandinista. They are pretty clear that they hate the Democrats, not as much as Republicans, but they hate them both. And, they really hate the Libertarians most of all, although the Libertarians are an insignificant political force.

Liberals, on the other hand, have shown themselves, by and large, to be waving the flag and carrying water for the Obama Administration. Witness the unabashed cheerleading from MSNBC with so called Liberals like Rachel Maddow, Ed Shultz and whatnot.
"Liberal" is one of those words that is used in all sorts of ways all over the world. I take it to mean equivalent to "progressives". Obama and centrist Democrats are most certainly not progressives. This is just another case of you and the Seths of America not realising that the Democrats are at best a centre-right party when judged by the standards of the rest of the western world. You think they are Liberals, Seth thinks they are Marxists. One is obviously (far) more wrong than the other, but same ignorance at base.
Progressive doesn't just mean progressive as it is understood under largely irrelevant Australian politics. Progressivism in the US has a long history, starting with Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson.

Fuck off already with this constant talking point about how "right wing" the US is in politics compared to "every other western industrialized country." It's an MSNBC talking point.

This is one of your "thoughtful" posts, is it? A personal attack telling me I don't know what Progressivism means, and that I'm "ignorant?" Nothing more pathetic than someone like you who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground, but thinks he's the smartest guy in the room.

Tool.
Was that you being "smart"? :hehe:
That was making fun of you.

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Re: Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:05 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Audley Strange wrote:You know, I actually agree with Coito on this. If Bush had done this sort of thing there would have been more of an outcry, especially internationally. I mean there has been some condemnation but it's a fart in an wind tunnel compared to the shit Bush used to get. Not that the Galoot and his crazed gang didn't deserve it, their actions deserved it, but Obama really has ramped up the idea of what is essentially robot death squads to be used against whomever the regime likes.
There's definitely a big dose of cognitive dissonance about it. I'm not from America, obviously, so I can't speak as to why he isn't pilloried in the US, but here in Australia the same ignorance of what he really stands for abounds. I can't offer a good answer. I wonder if it was related to a huge sense of relief that Bush was finally gone and people were so happy with that outcome they are able to dismiss in their minds valid criticism of Obama. The other factor in this is probably a realisation that when a Repub president next gets in, they won't wind back any of this and will in fact extend it as Obama himself did. What you are seeing now from your prez will one day look positively Marxist (ibid. Seth), compared to what will be the fascist norm.
And, here -- you agree with me. Good. So, since you've just agreed with my point, that people generally will not criticize Obama -- they are able to dismiss in their minds valid criticisms of Obama -- then we're in agreement. I already pointed out above that you and Gerald voiced some tepid concerns about this policy. So, now, what are you disagreeing with me about?
Yay, you finally found it! Well done. Now can you see why it was stupid of you to ask me whether I thought the rebubs would get more criticism if this was happening under them rather than the dems? :ask:
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Re: Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:08 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Ha! I sell myself short. I made quite a number of serious posts in this thread. So to help you, the relevant post is on page 3.
What a tool. You actually went and found it, but you won't link to it? Just say what the fuck you're talking about and stop being evasive, FFS. :nono:
Thanks for the ad-hom. Why should I link to it? The thread was just over 3 pages long when you asked me a question I had already answered on the previous page. This is done as a lesson for you. You need to learn that you are blinkered and it's because of those blinkers that you constantly miss what people have said. Hence why you think everyone is pro-Obama around here.

I asked "Who objects?" On page 1. :fp:

You need to learn that you're an idiot, and you don't know half as much as you think you know. And, don't object to "ad hominems" after you've just dished them out.

You're a parochial, hayseed from the middle of fucking nowhere in a largely irrelevant backwater. Yet, you think you have some superior access to knowledge and superior knowledge. Grow up.
Someone call the waaambulance!

And the question wasn't "Who objects?". I can only assume you are drunk or something. Either way, I'd be seriously questioning who is the "idiot" now, if I was you. :fp:
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Re: Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

Post by MrJonno » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:17 pm

That just shows you to be ignorant of US politics. Neither Party has any position on the creation of the world. Neither party thinks it is "o.k." to have representatives that think rape victims and get pregnant -- and the GOP leadership, whose party that person was unfortunately a part, called for that person to resign, and he stepped down, tried to run for the Senate, and lost overwhelmingly because of his stupid statements. And neither Party thinks the UN is about it invade. The UN doesn't have an army. Unfortunately, there are idiots in politics, that hopefully get weeded out. Some Democrats thought that islands could tip over and capsize (Hank Johnson).
Asking someone to resign isn't the same as sacking him (or do you have some constitutional right to represenet a political party). The fact the Republican party didnt means they tolerated his opinions. Individual stupid acts by politicans don't discredit a political party, tolerating them do
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Re: Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:20 pm

Yep. Those things when said in Australia and I'm assuming the UK would have the person immediately sacked from the party.
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Re: Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:55 pm

MrJonno wrote:
That just shows you to be ignorant of US politics. Neither Party has any position on the creation of the world. Neither party thinks it is "o.k." to have representatives that think rape victims and get pregnant -- and the GOP leadership, whose party that person was unfortunately a part, called for that person to resign, and he stepped down, tried to run for the Senate, and lost overwhelmingly because of his stupid statements. And neither Party thinks the UN is about it invade. The UN doesn't have an army. Unfortunately, there are idiots in politics, that hopefully get weeded out. Some Democrats thought that islands could tip over and capsize (Hank Johnson).
Asking someone to resign isn't the same as sacking him (or do you have some constitutional right to represenet a political party). The fact the Republican party didnt means they tolerated his opinions. Individual stupid acts by politicans don't discredit a political party, tolerating them do
They didn't have the power to just sack him. He was already on the ballot. The primary election occurred on August 7, 2012, and he was nominated as the Republican nominee by popular vote. The GOP national leadership does not have the power to just "sack" him. Maybe they do where you come from. Do they? Or, do you just have your national party leaderships pick the candidates? Sounds fancy.

Once he was on the ballot, a couple of weeks later, he made the stupid statement, and most of the GOP lined up against him, and he was essentially defunded. He got a small amount of money from the LOCAL missouri Republican party very close to the time of the election for some advertising, but most of his campaign was financed through his own fundraising. He lost overwhelmingly.

There was no toleration of his opinions by the Republican Party itself, although some people still voted for them. And, there are Akins among the Democrats who made other kinds of statements. The Democrats tolerated Robert Byrd, the Klansman from West Virginia until 2010 (he'd been a Senator for like 52 years). He died in office. Nobody "sacked" him, and he got on the ballot every year. Do you apply the same test to the Democratic Party?

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Re: Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:01 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
That just shows you to be ignorant of US politics. Neither Party has any position on the creation of the world. Neither party thinks it is "o.k." to have representatives that think rape victims and get pregnant -- and the GOP leadership, whose party that person was unfortunately a part, called for that person to resign, and he stepped down, tried to run for the Senate, and lost overwhelmingly because of his stupid statements. And neither Party thinks the UN is about it invade. The UN doesn't have an army. Unfortunately, there are idiots in politics, that hopefully get weeded out. Some Democrats thought that islands could tip over and capsize (Hank Johnson).
Asking someone to resign isn't the same as sacking him (or do you have some constitutional right to represenet a political party). The fact the Republican party didnt means they tolerated his opinions. Individual stupid acts by politicans don't discredit a political party, tolerating them do
They didn't have the power to just sack him. He was already on the ballot. The primary election occurred on August 7, 2012, and he was nominated as the Republican nominee by popular vote. The GOP national leadership does not have the power to just "sack" him. Maybe they do where you come from. Do they? Or, do you just have your national party leaderships pick the candidates? Sounds fancy.

Once he was on the ballot, a couple of weeks later, he made the stupid statement, and most of the GOP lined up against him, and he was essentially defunded. He got a small amount of money from the LOCAL missouri Republican party very close to the time of the election for some advertising, but most of his campaign was financed through his own fundraising. He lost overwhelmingly.

There was no toleration of his opinions by the Republican Party itself, although some people still voted for them. And, there are Akins among the Democrats who made other kinds of statements. The Democrats tolerated Robert Byrd, the Klansman from West Virginia until 2010 (he'd been a Senator for like 52 years). He died in office. Nobody "sacked" him, and he got on the ballot every year. Do you apply the same test to the Democratic Party?
Umm, it's not just this one person. There's a seemingly never ending string of highly offensive things said by Republican politicians. There have been at least 4 or 5 shocking rape comments in the last year or so alone.
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Re: Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:04 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:Yep. Those things when said in Australia and I'm assuming the UK would have the person immediately sacked from the party.
How do you sack someone when the electoral system has the party candidates chosen by popular vote? As I noted, he was nominated by popular vote on August 7. Anyone can run for the Republican or Democratic nomination, if you meet the requirements to get on the ballot. They couldn't sack him.

How does it work in Oz? You just have the Parties pick the candidates for you? Here, we have "primary" elections, where multiple Democrats run for the nomination and multiple Republicans run for the nomination. Once the people vote for a candidate to be the Democrat or Republican nominee, the party leadership can't just overrule that and sack the candidate.

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Re: Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:07 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Yep. Those things when said in Australia and I'm assuming the UK would have the person immediately sacked from the party.
How do you sack someone when the electoral system has the party candidates chosen by popular vote? As I noted, he was nominated by popular vote on August 7. Anyone can run for the Republican or Democratic nomination, if you meet the requirements to get on the ballot. They couldn't sack him.

How does it work in Oz? You just have the Parties pick the candidates for you? Here, we have "primary" elections, where multiple Democrats run for the nomination and multiple Republicans run for the nomination. Once the people vote for a candidate to be the Democrat or Republican nominee, the party leadership can't just overrule that and sack the candidate.
They are sacked from the party. They retain their seat. They just become an independent. It's a statement of values from the parties that says "we don't tolerate this sort of bigotry/hate/etc in our party". That's why the Brits and the Aussies view the Republican party as the party of bigots and haters. The party implicitly condones those statements by not expelling the offender from the party.
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Re: Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:17 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
That just shows you to be ignorant of US politics. Neither Party has any position on the creation of the world. Neither party thinks it is "o.k." to have representatives that think rape victims and get pregnant -- and the GOP leadership, whose party that person was unfortunately a part, called for that person to resign, and he stepped down, tried to run for the Senate, and lost overwhelmingly because of his stupid statements. And neither Party thinks the UN is about it invade. The UN doesn't have an army. Unfortunately, there are idiots in politics, that hopefully get weeded out. Some Democrats thought that islands could tip over and capsize (Hank Johnson).
Asking someone to resign isn't the same as sacking him (or do you have some constitutional right to represenet a political party). The fact the Republican party didnt means they tolerated his opinions. Individual stupid acts by politicans don't discredit a political party, tolerating them do
They didn't have the power to just sack him. He was already on the ballot. The primary election occurred on August 7, 2012, and he was nominated as the Republican nominee by popular vote. The GOP national leadership does not have the power to just "sack" him. Maybe they do where you come from. Do they? Or, do you just have your national party leaderships pick the candidates? Sounds fancy.

Once he was on the ballot, a couple of weeks later, he made the stupid statement, and most of the GOP lined up against him, and he was essentially defunded. He got a small amount of money from the LOCAL missouri Republican party very close to the time of the election for some advertising, but most of his campaign was financed through his own fundraising. He lost overwhelmingly.

There was no toleration of his opinions by the Republican Party itself, although some people still voted for them. And, there are Akins among the Democrats who made other kinds of statements. The Democrats tolerated Robert Byrd, the Klansman from West Virginia until 2010 (he'd been a Senator for like 52 years). He died in office. Nobody "sacked" him, and he got on the ballot every year. Do you apply the same test to the Democratic Party?
Umm, it's not just this one person. There's a seemingly never ending string of highly offensive things said by Republican politicians. There have been at least 4 or 5 shocking rape comments in the last year or so alone.

Akin is one. Let's talk about the others. Who are you referring to specifically?

Lots of people say lots of "offensive" things (depending on whose ox is being gored).

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Re: Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:20 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Yep. Those things when said in Australia and I'm assuming the UK would have the person immediately sacked from the party.
How do you sack someone when the electoral system has the party candidates chosen by popular vote? As I noted, he was nominated by popular vote on August 7. Anyone can run for the Republican or Democratic nomination, if you meet the requirements to get on the ballot. They couldn't sack him.

How does it work in Oz? You just have the Parties pick the candidates for you? Here, we have "primary" elections, where multiple Democrats run for the nomination and multiple Republicans run for the nomination. Once the people vote for a candidate to be the Democrat or Republican nominee, the party leadership can't just overrule that and sack the candidate.
They are sacked from the party. They retain their seat. They just become an independent.
That's not how it works in the US. Anyone can run for the Democratic nomination, and if they get elected by the people they are the Democratic nominee. The Party leadership can't sack them from the Party.

rEvolutionist wrote: It's a statement of values from the parties that says "we don't tolerate this sort of bigotry/hate/etc in our party". That's why the Brits and the Aussies view the Republican party as the party of bigots and haters. The party implicitly condones those statements by not expelling the offender from the party.
What's your view of Robert Byrd being "tolerated" by the Democratic Party?

They don't implicitly condone the statement, because they had no power to "expel" the guy.

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Re: Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:22 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
That just shows you to be ignorant of US politics. Neither Party has any position on the creation of the world. Neither party thinks it is "o.k." to have representatives that think rape victims and get pregnant -- and the GOP leadership, whose party that person was unfortunately a part, called for that person to resign, and he stepped down, tried to run for the Senate, and lost overwhelmingly because of his stupid statements. And neither Party thinks the UN is about it invade. The UN doesn't have an army. Unfortunately, there are idiots in politics, that hopefully get weeded out. Some Democrats thought that islands could tip over and capsize (Hank Johnson).
Asking someone to resign isn't the same as sacking him (or do you have some constitutional right to represenet a political party). The fact the Republican party didnt means they tolerated his opinions. Individual stupid acts by politicans don't discredit a political party, tolerating them do
They didn't have the power to just sack him. He was already on the ballot. The primary election occurred on August 7, 2012, and he was nominated as the Republican nominee by popular vote. The GOP national leadership does not have the power to just "sack" him. Maybe they do where you come from. Do they? Or, do you just have your national party leaderships pick the candidates? Sounds fancy.

Once he was on the ballot, a couple of weeks later, he made the stupid statement, and most of the GOP lined up against him, and he was essentially defunded. He got a small amount of money from the LOCAL missouri Republican party very close to the time of the election for some advertising, but most of his campaign was financed through his own fundraising. He lost overwhelmingly.

There was no toleration of his opinions by the Republican Party itself, although some people still voted for them. And, there are Akins among the Democrats who made other kinds of statements. The Democrats tolerated Robert Byrd, the Klansman from West Virginia until 2010 (he'd been a Senator for like 52 years). He died in office. Nobody "sacked" him, and he got on the ballot every year. Do you apply the same test to the Democratic Party?
Umm, it's not just this one person. There's a seemingly never ending string of highly offensive things said by Republican politicians. There have been at least 4 or 5 shocking rape comments in the last year or so alone.

Akin is one. Let's talk about the others. Who are you referring to specifically?

Lots of people say lots of "offensive" things (depending on whose ox is being gored).
I don't have them catalogued. They show up in my facebook feed every few weeks. The fact that you don't know of more disgusting rape (and other) comments from Republicans just confirms to me that you are thoroughly blinkered. This happens in thread after thread where you aren't aware of stuff that most people in these discussions consider common knowledge.
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Re: Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:25 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Yep. Those things when said in Australia and I'm assuming the UK would have the person immediately sacked from the party.
How do you sack someone when the electoral system has the party candidates chosen by popular vote? As I noted, he was nominated by popular vote on August 7. Anyone can run for the Republican or Democratic nomination, if you meet the requirements to get on the ballot. They couldn't sack him.

How does it work in Oz? You just have the Parties pick the candidates for you? Here, we have "primary" elections, where multiple Democrats run for the nomination and multiple Republicans run for the nomination. Once the people vote for a candidate to be the Democrat or Republican nominee, the party leadership can't just overrule that and sack the candidate.
They are sacked from the party. They retain their seat. They just become an independent.
That's not how it works in the US. Anyone can run for the Democratic nomination, and if they get elected by the people they are the Democratic nominee. The Party leadership can't sack them from the Party.

rEvolutionist wrote: It's a statement of values from the parties that says "we don't tolerate this sort of bigotry/hate/etc in our party". That's why the Brits and the Aussies view the Republican party as the party of bigots and haters. The party implicitly condones those statements by not expelling the offender from the party.
What's your view of Robert Byrd being "tolerated" by the Democratic Party?

They don't implicitly condone the statement, because they had no power to "expel" the guy.
I don't understand how your system works. Who is voting for a "nominee"? What exactly is a nominee? Is that the person who won the election for a seat, or is that the person who is contesting the seat for a particular party?

Either way, why can't a party organisation decide who gets to use the party name? It sounds insane if the case is that anyone can use the party name if they get "nominated" (whatever that actually is).
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Re: Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

Post by MrJonno » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:26 pm

If a politician or candidate brings a political party into disrepute as far as I know all political parties has internal procedues to 'withdraw the whip' . It doesnt stop them standing for election but if they are a candidate and claim to represent the party they can be sued (it may even be illegal), if they already elected the party can then say this person is nothing to do with me.

It is interesting that it is harder/rarer to do in the US but I a google of the Republican party shows they have the ability to suspend entire local party machines if they want. I asusme they don't do this as at short notice its almost certainly going to result in defeat Political parties are private members clubs, you have a right to vote for one but there is no right to be a member of it
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Re: Obama justifies assassination of US Citizens?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:37 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
I don't have them catalogued. They show up in my facebook feed every few weeks. The fact that you don't know of more disgusting rape (and other) comments from Republicans just confirms to me that you are thoroughly blinkered. This happens in thread after thread where you aren't aware of stuff that most people in these discussions consider common knowledge.
What an idiot you are.

You brought it up. I'm not going to guess what you're referring to. I'm aware of a lot of things, but I can't say as I can read your fucking deficient little mind.

If you raise an issue like that, be prepared to make your own argument. You were thinking of 4 or 5 comments. Well, go ahead - which ones? Let's see if they are as "offensive" as you claim them to be, and let's discuss them specifically.

If you don't want to, then, well, that's fine too. But, I'm not going to go out there and guess at what you're thinking about. And, my unwillingness to do that doesn't mean I'm not aware of other stupid shit Republicans have done and said. Fuck off, you snarky little bitch.

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