Political posterizing redux.

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Re: Political posterizing redux.

Post by sandinista » Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:24 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:So, the middle ground you take is what? Drone attacks are o.k.? Or, do you oppose the drone attacks? Did it depend on who is President?
No, the "middle ground" is just the sacred space jimc occupies. It has no definition. In reality, just doublespeak for extremist neo-liberal.

Curious ces, are you not a cheerleader FOR waterboarding AND drone attacks? Seems you must like obama and bush? no?
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Anecdotal: I can state that if it weren't for one session of torture I have been dead four decades ago.
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Re: Political posterizing redux.

Post by Jason » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:09 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Făkünamę wrote:Drone attacks that kill innocent civilians with the foreknowledge that they are there, or there is a high probability they are there, are bad. M'Kay?
Torture is bad. M'Kay?

Now it's up to you to decide which is more bad. M'Kay?
Anecdotal: I can state that if it weren't for one session of torture I have been dead four decades ago.
Do we want to debate the ethical issues here or the reliability of information obtained under torture?

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Re: Political posterizing redux.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:16 pm

Făkünamę wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Făkünamę wrote:Drone attacks that kill innocent civilians with the foreknowledge that they are there, or there is a high probability they are there, are bad. M'Kay?
Torture is bad. M'Kay?

Now it's up to you to decide which is more bad. M'Kay?
Anecdotal: I can state that if it weren't for one session of torture I have been dead four decades ago.
Do we want to debate the ethical issues here or the reliability of information obtained under torture?
My ethics were that I didn't want to get killed. The information the nice men extracted for me proved reliable.

Take it away.
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Re: Political posterizing redux.

Post by Jason » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:19 pm

Naw. I've read the reports from various branches of the US military on torture. Too bad I don't have them anymore. Far more often than not it is unreliable. The ethical question gets all bogged down in philosophy. For me it's unreliable and unethical. And that's all I have to say about that.

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Re: Political posterizing redux.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:22 pm

Făkünamę wrote:Naw. I've read the reports from various branches of the US military on torture. Too bad I don't have them anymore. Far more often than not it is unreliable. The ethical question gets all bogged down in philosophy. For me it's unreliable and unethical. And that's all I have to say about that.
There are ways to make it more reliable. You might want to look into the motivations behind the reports you've read.
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Re: Political posterizing redux.

Post by Gerald McGrew » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:07 am

IMO, if you're going to criticize waterboarding, you certainly have to criticize drone attacks that kill civilians, Presidential-ordered assassinations, and the expansion of the domestic spying programs. To many who focus on the civil liberties front, Obama is as bad as, or worse than W. Bush.

Try and avoid tribalism whenever you can.

Also, looking at how much debt was added under Obama vs. W. Bush is a faulty comparison. The federal debt is a result of budget deficits, which are the difference between revenues and spending. So if the revenue side of the ledger crashes (as happened in late 2008-early 2009), deficits will naturally increase, which will add to the debt. OTOH, if you inherit a near balanced equation as W. did, the only way to add significantly to the debt is to increase spending. And that's what W. Bush did via the prescription drug benefit and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Of course Obama could have tried to reduce federal spending when he took office (would have needed Congress to do go along with it), but that would have been insane. A recession is a contraction in the economy, where the private and business sectors are reducing spending and money is moving through the economy at a slower rate. Had the gov't also significantly pulled back its spending at the same time, it would have only worsened the recession.

And to be honest, I've never heard the "Reagan inherited a worse economy than Obama" before. There's a reason why the W. Bush collapse is referred to as the "worst economic collapse since the Great Depression". Look at the data of GDP by year: http://www.multpl.com/us-gdp-inflation-adjusted/table

Reagan inherited a stagnant economy. Obama inherited a contracting economy. Also, Obama inherited an economy that was shedding jobs by the hundreds of thousands per month before he even was sworn in, whereas Reagan inherited an economy that didn't start shedding jobs until his second year in office. Unemployment actually decreased between what he inherited and his first year in office.
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Re: Political posterizing redux.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:09 am

Oh, but George Walker Bush never existed. This is why CES won't apologize for voting for the Great Destructor TWICE.
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Re: Political posterizing redux.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:41 pm

sandinista wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:So, the middle ground you take is what? Drone attacks are o.k.? Or, do you oppose the drone attacks? Did it depend on who is President?
No, the "middle ground" is just the sacred space jimc occupies. It has no definition. In reality, just doublespeak for extremist neo-liberal.

Curious ces, are you not a cheerleader FOR waterboarding AND drone attacks? Seems you must like obama and bush? no?
Nope, I am a cheerleader for neither. I am less disturbed, however, by way of degree, over a few incidents of waterboarding than I am at hundreds of drone attacks against alleged terrorists, including american citizens, without regard for national boundaries at all. The latter is far more disconcerting from a moral and legal perspective. The former is "we have Kalid Sheikh Mohammed in custody, let's find out what he knows" and the latter is -- we say so-and-so is guilty, so drop a bomb on his house, and at the same time kill civilians overseas, and let's do it in a country that Congress has not authorized military action in.

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Re: Political posterizing redux.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:46 pm

Gerald McGrew wrote: And to be honest, I've never heard the "Reagan inherited a worse economy than Obama" before. There's a reason why the W. Bush collapse is referred to as the "worst economic collapse since the Great Depression".
It has been pointed out before, by persons other than me. The reason being is that not only was there a bad recession in 1980, but there was sky high unemployment (up over 10% compared to 7%, which Obama inherited), coupled with sky high interest rates (14% -- compared to 4% that Obama inherited) and sky high inflation (10% inflation and more - compared to 1 or 2% which Obama inherited)

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Re: Political posterizing redux.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:49 pm

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Re: Political posterizing redux.

Post by Gerald McGrew » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:47 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:It has been pointed out before, by persons other than me.
That doesn't make it true.
The reason being is that not only was there a bad recession in 1980,
No, not really. Third quarter GDP 1979: $5.868 trillion; Fourth quarter GDP 1979: $5.884 trillion; First quarter GDP 1980: $5.903 trillion; Second quarter 1980: $5.782 trillion; Third quarter 1980: $5.771 trillion. That's more stagnation than a "bad recession".

Now, there was another, worse recession that started in July 1981 and ran to November 1982, but that definitely can't be referred to as something Reagan "inherited".
but there was sky high unemployment (up over 10% compared to 7%, which Obama inherited),
Again, we need to differentiate between what Reagan "inherited" and what took place well into his first term. Unemployment in 1980 was at 6.9% in April 1980 and 7.5% in May. They stayed there through the end of 1981. But by December 1982, unemployment reached 10.8%...again, hardly something Reagan "inherited".
If you don't like being called "stupid", then stop saying stupid things.

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Re: Political posterizing redux.

Post by Gerald McGrew » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:50 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:Image
Why do you suppose conservatives in Congress are so upset over the Executive Branch needing their authority to raise the revenues to implement the spending that they authorized?
If you don't like being called "stupid", then stop saying stupid things.

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Re: Political posterizing redux.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:05 pm

Gerald McGrew wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:It has been pointed out before, by persons other than me.
That doesn't make it true.
The reason being is that not only was there a bad recession in 1980,
No, not really. Third quarter GDP 1979: $5.868 trillion; Fourth quarter GDP 1979: $5.884 trillion; First quarter GDP 1980: $5.903 trillion; Second quarter 1980: $5.782 trillion; Third quarter 1980: $5.771 trillion. That's more stagnation than a "bad recession".

Now, there was another, worse recession that started in July 1981 and ran to November 1982, but that definitely can't be referred to as something Reagan "inherited".
Sure it can -- it's part of the economy that he inherited, and he can't be expected to turn the ship around overnight. Right? Just like the folks who STILL four years later absolve Obama of responsibility because of the economy he inherited in 2009.
Gerald McGrew wrote:
but there was sky high unemployment (up over 10% compared to 7%, which Obama inherited),
Again, we need to differentiate between what Reagan "inherited" and what took place well into his first term. Unemployment in 1980 was at 6.9% in April 1980 and 7.5% in May. They stayed there through the end of 1981. But by December 1982, unemployment reached 10.8%...again, hardly something Reagan "inherited".
Well, if that's the standard, then can we agree that Obama now bears responsiblity for the economy? I like how Obama inherited unemployment at about 7%, but it was still what he "inherited" when it was 10% one, two and three years later. Carter's responsibility ends January, 1981. Obama still not responsible for the economy, February, 2013.

In any case, by 1984, the economy was booming, and Reagan one the biggest landslide victory in US electoral history.

Now, the reality is that the recession in GDP did begin in July, 1981, but the economy downturn that led to that recession didn't just begin in January 1981 when Reagan took office. The government policies in 1981 were set in 1980, while Carter was President with a Democratic Congress. Obama supporters make this valid point when they say that the year 2009 should really be credited to Bush, because 2008 is when all those policies were set. So, if Obama inherited 2009, then didn't Reagan inherit 1981?

In 1980, inflation was up to 13.5%. That too was something Reagan inherited. High and rising interest rates too, coupled with inflation and a stagnant economy -- called "Staglflation" at the time.

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Re: Political posterizing redux.

Post by Gerald McGrew » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:19 pm

Sheesh....for a non-conservative, it sure is funny how you are so adamant in defending Reagan and chastising Obama. Just like how you were all for Romney...but no, you're not any sort of conservative, right?

The difference between their first terms is extraordinarily clear. Reagan walked into office with a stagnant economy and high, but steady unemployment rate. But by his second year, both became far worse. OTOH, Obama waked into office with an economy that was in free-fall and was poised to careen into a depression. By his second year the recession was over, GDP was increasing, and the economy was adding jobs (rather than shedding them).

Again, there's a reason the W. Bush collapse is referred to as "the worst economic collapse since the Great Depression" rather than "the worst collapse since Reagan".
If you don't like being called "stupid", then stop saying stupid things.

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Re: Political posterizing redux.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:25 pm

Gerald McGrew wrote:Sheesh....for a non-conservative, it sure is funny how you are so adamant in defending Reagan and chastising Obama.
Why do you think he's telling the truth about being anything other than a conservative?
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