Mystery over 'explosion' at Iran's Fordow nuclear site

[Cormac]

If Israel uses nukes, I think it will immediately cause the EU to close doors to Israel, and it will terrify neighbours (who are fond of apocalyptic mythologies) into acting rashly. All round, a very dangerous and stupid thing to do.

[Seth]

You just.. don't get it do you Seth?

If Iran wants 'the bomb', they'll get 'the bomb'. Nothing short of full scale war is going to stop them and Israel isn't up to the task. The USA can't afford to make itself vulnerable by taking on a hardened target with a real army at this time. So this is what we get. Mysterious explosions.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. I like the way Israel handles these things. First they infiltrate and sabotage, then they try conventional weapons (on their reactors), and only as a last resort do they turn the Mullahs into radioactive glass.

Never happen.

I hope you're right and that Iran is kept disarmed some other way.

Besides, Israel already has 'the bomb'. Fair's fair.

A bunch of them actually, which is why Israel still exists. They came damned close to dropping a half dozen or so of them on Baghdad when Saddam started firing SCUDs at them, but our government got them to turn the planes back within minutes of their point of no return.

There's nothing "fair" about Iran getting nuclear weapons, it's a clear and present danger to the rest of the non-Muslim world and they must be stopped at any price, even the vaporization of Tehran if necessary.

How very narrow minded and parochial of you. I'm not disappointed.

Iran has nobody to blame but its Mullahs and it's insane "President," and it'll get exactly what it deserves if the people of Iran don't take their country back from the Islamist extremists.

I'm not prepared to sacrifice ANY other population (not even London's) to your asinine liberal ideas. Muslim extremists are dangerous as hell and need to be defanged and neutralized using whatever force is required.

[Seth]

If Israel uses nukes, I think it will immediately cause the EU to close doors to Israel, and it will terrify neighbours (who are fond of apocalyptic mythologies) into acting rashly. All round, a very dangerous and stupid thing to do.

Yup. Nuclear brinksmanship is a dangerous game, so Iran and the rest of the Muslim extremists in the Middle East need to stop it before Israel "acts rashly" in self-defense.

You can only threaten to exterminate an entire nation full of people so many times before that nation justifiably acts in self defense.

[Jason]

And they're the dangerous extremists? Hmm.

Doesn't matter anyway because, as I said, no one can stop Iran from building 'the bomb' if that's what they're intent on doing. Nukes are not an option and never will be. Conventional war is not an option at this time.

[Jason]

If Israel uses nukes, I think it will immediately cause the EU to close doors to Israel, and it will terrify neighbours (who are fond of apocalyptic mythologies) into acting rashly. All round, a very dangerous and stupid thing to do.

Yup. Nuclear brinksmanship is a dangerous game, so Iran and the rest of the Muslim extremists in the Middle East need to stop it before Israel "acts rashly" in self-defense.

You can only threaten to exterminate an entire nation full of people so many times before that nation justifiably acts in self defense.

Israel would only be ensuring their own destruction and they know it. No one would condone a nuclear strike. They'd be left out in the cold facing the entire middle-east.

[Seth]

If Israel uses nukes, I think it will immediately cause the EU to close doors to Israel, and it will terrify neighbours (who are fond of apocalyptic mythologies) into acting rashly. All round, a very dangerous and stupid thing to do.

Yup. Nuclear brinksmanship is a dangerous game, so Iran and the rest of the Muslim extremists in the Middle East need to stop it before Israel "acts rashly" in self-defense.

You can only threaten to exterminate an entire nation full of people so many times before that nation justifiably acts in self defense.

Israel would only be ensuring their own destruction and they know it. No one would condone a nuclear strike. They'd be left out in the cold facing the entire middle-east.

If Iran (or anybody else in the region) gets nukes, Israel will have nothing whatever to lose and everything to gain through preemptive strikes because if Iran gets nukes, it is the stated intention of those who run the country to exterminate Israel using those nukes.

Why wouldn't Israel strike first?

[sandinista]

bah

Israel: “Wiped off The Map”. The Rumor of the Century, Fabricated by the US Media to Justify An All out War on Iran

Wiped off The Map: The Rumor of the Century

by Arash Norouzi

Global Research, January 20, 2007

The Mossadegh Project
Across the world, a dangerous rumor has spread that could have catastrophic implications. According to legend, Iran’s President has threatened to destroy Israel, or, to quote the misquote, “Israel must be wiped off the map”. Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made, as the following article will prove.

BACKGROUND:

On Tuesday, October 25th, 2005 at the Ministry of Interior conference hall in Tehran, newly elected Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad delivered a speech at a program, reportedly attended by thousands, titled “The World Without Zionism”. Large posters surrounding him displayed this title prominently in English, obviously for the benefit of the international press. Below the poster’s title was a slick graphic depicting an hour glass containing planet Earth at its top. Two small round orbs representing the United States and Israel are shown falling through the hour glass’ narrow neck and crashing to the bottom.

Before we get to the infamous remark, it’s important to note that the “quote” in question was itself a quote— they are the words of the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the father of the Islamic Revolution. Although he quoted Khomeini to affirm his own position on Zionism, the actual words belong to Khomeini and not Ahmadinejad. Thus, Ahmadinejad has essentially been credited (or blamed) for a quote that is not only unoriginal, but represents a viewpoint already in place well before he ever took office.

THE ACTUAL QUOTE:

So what did Ahmadinejad actually say? To quote his exact words in farsi:

”Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad.”

That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word “Regime“, pronounced just like the English word with an extra “eh” sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase ”rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods” (regime occupying Jerusalem).

So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want “wiped from the map”? The answer is: nothing. That’s because the word “map” was never used. The Persian word for map, “nagsheh“, is not contained anywhere in his original farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase “wipe out” ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran’s President threatened to “wipe Israel off the map”, despite never having uttered the words “map”, “wipe out” or even “Israel”.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-wip ... iran/21188

[Seth]

bah

Israel: “Wiped off The Map”. The Rumor of the Century, Fabricated by the US Media to Justify An All out War on Iran

Wiped off The Map: The Rumor of the Century

by Arash Norouzi

Global Research, January 20, 2007

The Mossadegh Project
Across the world, a dangerous rumor has spread that could have catastrophic implications. According to legend, Iran’s President has threatened to destroy Israel, or, to quote the misquote, “Israel must be wiped off the map”. Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made, as the following article will prove.

BACKGROUND:

On Tuesday, October 25th, 2005 at the Ministry of Interior conference hall in Tehran, newly elected Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad delivered a speech at a program, reportedly attended by thousands, titled “The World Without Zionism”. Large posters surrounding him displayed this title prominently in English, obviously for the benefit of the international press. Below the poster’s title was a slick graphic depicting an hour glass containing planet Earth at its top. Two small round orbs representing the United States and Israel are shown falling through the hour glass’ narrow neck and crashing to the bottom.

Before we get to the infamous remark, it’s important to note that the “quote” in question was itself a quote— they are the words of the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the father of the Islamic Revolution. Although he quoted Khomeini to affirm his own position on Zionism, the actual words belong to Khomeini and not Ahmadinejad. Thus, Ahmadinejad has essentially been credited (or blamed) for a quote that is not only unoriginal, but represents a viewpoint already in place well before he ever took office.

THE ACTUAL QUOTE:

So what did Ahmadinejad actually say? To quote his exact words in farsi:

”Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad.”

That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word “Regime“, pronounced just like the English word with an extra “eh” sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase ”rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods” (regime occupying Jerusalem).

So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want “wiped from the map”? The answer is: nothing. That’s because the word “map” was never used. The Persian word for map, “nagsheh“, is not contained anywhere in his original farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase “wipe out” ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran’s President threatened to “wipe Israel off the map”, despite never having uttered the words “map”, “wipe out” or even “Israel”.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-wip ... iran/21188

Meh. A distinction without a difference. What Ahmadinejad said parroted what Kohmeni said and what Islamist radicals all over Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and everwhere else outside of Israel itself in the Middle East (and everywhere else radical Islamists are found) mean is precisely what the media says, that radical Islamists view Jews as animals and non-humans and that both Jews and the "Zionist regime" must be extirpated. Since all Jews are part of the "Zionist regime" because they are Jews, extirpating the "Zionist regime" necessarily includes exterminating all Jews.

Ahmadinejad's temporizing, obfuscating, evading and pettifogging are obvious and his murderous, genocidal intent is just as obvious based on the vast bulk of his rhetoric over time.

The only thing that would keep Ahmadinejad from nuking Israel is that Jerusalem is also an Islamic holy site, but the easy answer for Ahmadinejad is to develop neutron bombs that will kill all living things in and near Jerusalem without damaging the infrastructure.

As for the rest of Israel, well-placed tactical nukes would do the job with limited contamination. Besides, the Caliphate plan is generations in the making and generations in the completion, so they can reoccupy Israel some years down the road, as the Japanese have reoccupied Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as the radiation levels drop.

Or they can reoccupy thinking that Allah will protect them and cleanse the earth of dangerous radiation, which might be just desserts for the ignorant fuckwits.

Anyway, the article you cite is entirely unpersuasive and was written by an Islamist radical from a radical Islamist perspective, and therefore doesn't constitute any sort of evidence that Ahmadinejad and his ilk do not have the intent to destroy Israel if they get nukes.

[Jason]

Doesn't matter. As I said, Iran has free reign for the foreseeable future. All they have to contend with is espionage and sabotage, but they've been doing that for decades.

[Cormac]

If Israel uses nukes, I think it will immediately cause the EU to close doors to Israel, and it will terrify neighbours (who are fond of apocalyptic mythologies) into acting rashly. All round, a very dangerous and stupid thing to do.

Yup. Nuclear brinksmanship is a dangerous game, so Iran and the rest of the Muslim extremists in the Middle East need to stop it before Israel "acts rashly" in self-defense.

You can only threaten to exterminate an entire nation full of people so many times before that nation justifiably acts in self defense.

I trust Israel's lunatic leadership exactly as much as I trust the lunatics leading Iran.

Of course, the average Iranian does have someone to blame for their current nightmare theocracy...

1. The Islamic Revolution
2. The Shah
3. Gulf Oil (now BP)
4. British Intelligence (which planned the coup to overthrow pro-Western, democratic Mossadeq and replace him with despotic, totalitarian, police state Shah)
5. CIA, which took over and completed the overthrow when British Intelligence were not able to.

The average Iranian was pro-America during Mossadeq's time. Look what has happened since.

[Cormac]

bah

Israel: “Wiped off The Map”. The Rumor of the Century, Fabricated by the US Media to Justify An All out War on Iran

Wiped off The Map: The Rumor of the Century

by Arash Norouzi

Global Research, January 20, 2007

The Mossadegh Project
Across the world, a dangerous rumor has spread that could have catastrophic implications. According to legend, Iran’s President has threatened to destroy Israel, or, to quote the misquote, “Israel must be wiped off the map”. Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made, as the following article will prove.

BACKGROUND:

On Tuesday, October 25th, 2005 at the Ministry of Interior conference hall in Tehran, newly elected Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad delivered a speech at a program, reportedly attended by thousands, titled “The World Without Zionism”. Large posters surrounding him displayed this title prominently in English, obviously for the benefit of the international press. Below the poster’s title was a slick graphic depicting an hour glass containing planet Earth at its top. Two small round orbs representing the United States and Israel are shown falling through the hour glass’ narrow neck and crashing to the bottom.

Before we get to the infamous remark, it’s important to note that the “quote” in question was itself a quote— they are the words of the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the father of the Islamic Revolution. Although he quoted Khomeini to affirm his own position on Zionism, the actual words belong to Khomeini and not Ahmadinejad. Thus, Ahmadinejad has essentially been credited (or blamed) for a quote that is not only unoriginal, but represents a viewpoint already in place well before he ever took office.

THE ACTUAL QUOTE:

So what did Ahmadinejad actually say? To quote his exact words in farsi:

”Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad.”

That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word “Regime“, pronounced just like the English word with an extra “eh” sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase ”rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods” (regime occupying Jerusalem).

So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want “wiped from the map”? The answer is: nothing. That’s because the word “map” was never used. The Persian word for map, “nagsheh“, is not contained anywhere in his original farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase “wipe out” ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran’s President threatened to “wipe Israel off the map”, despite never having uttered the words “map”, “wipe out” or even “Israel”.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-wip ... iran/21188

Meh. A distinction without a difference. What Ahmadinejad said parroted what Kohmeni said and what Islamist radicals all over Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and everwhere else outside of Israel itself in the Middle East (and everywhere else radical Islamists are found) mean is precisely what the media says, that radical Islamists view Jews as animals and non-humans and that both Jews and the "Zionist regime" must be extirpated. Since all Jews are part of the "Zionist regime" because they are Jews, extirpating the "Zionist regime" necessarily includes exterminating all Jews.

Ahmadinejad's temporizing, obfuscating, evading and pettifogging are obvious and his murderous, genocidal intent is just as obvious based on the vast bulk of his rhetoric over time.

The only thing that would keep Ahmadinejad from nuking Israel is that Jerusalem is also an Islamic holy site, but the easy answer for Ahmadinejad is to develop neutron bombs that will kill all living things in and near Jerusalem without damaging the infrastructure.

As for the rest of Israel, well-placed tactical nukes would do the job with limited contamination. Besides, the Caliphate plan is generations in the making and generations in the completion, so they can reoccupy Israel some years down the road, as the Japanese have reoccupied Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as the radiation levels drop.

Or they can reoccupy thinking that Allah will protect them and cleanse the earth of dangerous radiation, which might be just desserts for the ignorant fuckwits.

Anyway, the article you cite is entirely unpersuasive and was written by an Islamist radical from a radical Islamist perspective, and therefore doesn't constitute any sort of evidence that Ahmadinejad and his ilk do not have the intent to destroy Israel if they get nukes.

In my view, you are conflating Jewish people, Zionists, Zionism, and the State of Israel. These are not the same thing at all.

For example,

I would like to see the complete political overhaul of the state of Israel, with the removal of all notions of the sectarian or racially defined citizenship.

Citizenship should be defined there simply by residence for a period of time, as it pretty much is in most places.
I would like a democratic state encompassing all the current Israelis and Palestinians, and I would like secularism to be fixed at the heart of the Constitution of that new state.

So, I would very much like the "destruction" of the Israeli state, and its replacement with something that I think would be better for all the people currently there.

I therefore think Zionism is wrong. I go further to say it is stupid.

But I clearly would not exclude Zionists from the new democratic state.

Jewish people, Zionism, Zionist, Israel - all distinct and separate.

[cronus]

People die falling out of trees. This is a accident waiting to happen. The fact it ain't so far is no guarantee it won't and Bibi is on his last stint with destiny, and he knows his time is short.

[Seth]

Doesn't matter. As I said, Iran has free reign for the foreseeable future. All they have to contend with is espionage and sabotage, but they've been doing that for decades.

You forget those pesky Israeli bombing raids on Iraq in the 80s (Operation Opera).

Israel has plenty of non-nuclear options to exercise, espionage and sabotage being among them (which they are particularly adept at perforce).

[Seth]

In my view, you are conflating Jewish people, Zionists, Zionism, and the State of Israel. These are not the same thing at all.

They are to Islamist radicals. One and the same. Which is why a threat to destroy "Zionism" is a threat to commit genocide on the Jews.

For example,

I would like to see the complete political overhaul of the state of Israel, with the removal of all notions of the sectarian or racially defined citizenship.

Citizenship should be defined there simply by residence for a period of time, as it pretty much is in most places.
I would like a democratic state encompassing all the current Israelis and Palestinians, and I would like secularism to be fixed at the heart of the Constitution of that new state.

So, I would very much like the "destruction" of the Israeli state, and its replacement with something that I think would be better for all the people currently there.

I therefore think Zionism is wrong. I go further to say it is stupid.

But I clearly would not exclude Zionists from the new democratic state.

Jewish people, Zionism, Zionist, Israel - all distinct and separate.

First, how Israel constitutes its nation is none of your or anyone else's fucking business. Second, you may make the distinction, but Islamist radicals do not. This is easily seen by their rhetoric referring to Jews as sub-human animals.

I repeat, any threat to destroy "Zionism" is a thinly-disguised call for genocide against the Jews. End of story.

Your argument is merely apologia for genocidal Islamic maniacs.

[Jason]

Newsflash, this aint the 80s and Iran is more than capable of downing any aerial attack Israel could send at them. Besides, that would constitute a declaration of war. A war Israel cannot possibly win without US support. Support the US cannot afford to give now and for the foreseeable future. Israel may be governed by dangerous religious fanatics willing to commit all sorts of atrocities, but they're not entirely stupid. If they were, there would already be a war between Israel and Iran.

Derp.