Guns Used.....cont

[klr]

Finally some excitement at gun show
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/19/us/north- ... .html?c=us

There were 5 people shot at 3 different gun shows yesterday ("Gun Appreciation Day").


Something from Politifact.com...

"Since 1968, more Americans have died from gunfire than died in … all the wars of this country's history." -Mark Shields, PBS commentator.

Politifact's research concludes: Not only is this True, but the former figure is 213,000 higher than the latter, 1.38 million to 1.17 million.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... lled-guns/

In fairness, these statistics include suicides, so the numbers are a good bit higher than they would be if suicides were not counted. But here's another statistic: people living with a gun in the house are 500% more likely to successfully commit suicide than people who do not live with a gun. Not a terribly bad reason for gun-related suiicides to be included along with all the homicides and accidents.

So the way things are going, the gap is only going to increase every year.

[Ian]

Unless we have another really big war, yep.

We're working on that, btw.

[klr]

Another stat for you: The US Armed Forces suffered just over 30,000 battle deaths in 1942 and just over 31,000 in 1943. Those sort of numbers are typical for annual gun-related deaths at present.

[Ian]

Another stat for you: The US Armed Forces suffered just over 30,000 battle deaths in 1942 and just over 31,000 in 1943. Those sort of numbers are typical for annual gun-related deaths at present.

That's it? The other 340,000 were all in 1944 and 1945? Not counting Pearl Harbor and some other stuff in late '41, that is. Yeah, I think you're right.

[Jason]

That all depends on your position in the suicide debate. I think suicides should be discounted in this context.

[Ian]

I think they should be generally discounted too, but always with a big caveat - the one I mentioned above about the likelihood of it happening being 500% higher for those with a gun in the house than for those who don't have one.

[klr]

Another stat for you: The US Armed Forces suffered just over 30,000 battle deaths in 1942 and just over 31,000 in 1943. Those sort of numbers are typical for annual gun-related deaths at present.

That's it? The other 340,000 were all in 1944 and 1945? Not counting Pearl Harbor and some other stuff in late '41, that is. Yeah, I think you're right.

Sort of. The total battle deaths were c. 293,000 (plus another 7,000 for the Merchant Marine), and just over 100,000 non battle-related deaths (accidents, illness, etc.).

Even when US casualties were at their worst - from June 44 through April 45 - it would usually have taken two months of battle deaths to equal the current annual toll for gun-related deaths.

[FBM]

Two-thirds of US gun deaths are suicides. We have about the same number of traffic deaths annually, very few of which are suicides. Wonder why they don't make the headlines? Oh, that's not a hot-button political issue; would not increase readership or profits.

[klr]

Two-thirds of US gun deaths are suicides. We have about the same number of traffic deaths annually, very few of which are suicides. Wonder why they don't make the headlines? Oh, that's not a hot-button political issue; would not increase readership or profits.

I can't comment on the USA, but road safety is a very high priority public issue in some countries, including here in Ireland. We have a very good record now - one of the best in the world. It's likely to get even better, given how seriously it's taken.

EDIT: I note that US traffic-related deaths are steadily decreasing, and they are probably (per capita) half what they used to be 30/40 years ago. That sort of improvement doesn't happen by chance, so obviously both the authorities and the public in general are interested in improving the situation.

[Ian]

Two-thirds of US gun deaths are suicides. We have about the same number of traffic deaths annually, very few of which are suicides. Wonder why they don't make the headlines? Oh, that's not a hot-button political issue; would not increase readership or profits.

It's a bit less than two-thirds, more like 55-60% (but hard to know precisely due to how they're recorded).

But there are extremely good reasons why it is a hot-button issue and will remain so for the forseeable future. Auto-related deaths are almost entirely accidents; a negligible few are due to vehicular homicide. Gun-related deaths, not so much. But few people rant and rave about losing their freedoms when the gubment requires people to pass driving tests in order to get a license, posts speed limits, uses tax dollars to put up overhead street lights, obligates the auto industry to crash-test their cars up to certain standards, etc. Everyone knows there are excellent reasons for all of that stuff. But as far as gun laws go, they're not only lax, but those that exist are not enforced well either.

[JimC]

Two-thirds of US gun deaths are suicides. We have about the same number of traffic deaths annually, very few of which are suicides. Wonder why they don't make the headlines? Oh, that's not a hot-button political issue; would not increase readership or profits.

It's a bit less than two-thirds, more like 55-60% (but hard to know precisely due to how they're recorded).

But there are extremely good reasons why it is a hot-button issue and will remain so for the forseeable future. Auto-related deaths are almost entirely accidents; a negligible few are due to vehicular homicide. Gun-related deaths, not so much. But few people rant and rave about losing their freedoms when the gubment requires people to pass driving tests in order to get a license, posts speed limits, uses tax dollars to put up overhead street lights, obligates the auto industry to crash-test their cars up to certain standards, etc. Everyone knows there are excellent reasons for all of that stuff. But as far as gun laws go, they're not only lax, but those that exist are not enforced well either.

[FBM]

There WAS a nationwide stink over seatbelt laws, but I agree it was nothing along the lines of the resistance to gun laws. Maybe because the Constitution doesn't give everyone the right to drive without seatbelts. And a fair number of traffic deaths are negligent homicides, I'd imagine. While I agree that something serious needs to be done to correct the wrongs in the gun ownership laws in the US, I'm dismayed at the irrational rhetoric that's being spewed by people on each extreme of the debate. There's no more of a crisis now with firearm ownership than with automobile ownership, death-wise. Once you discount suicides, I'd bet drunk drivers kill more people than are killed with guns. If a drunk driver runs a school bus off the road and kills a couple dozen kids, you don't get this kind of nationwide/international attention. As tragic as the CN and other shootings were, the media aren't helping by giving them disproportionate coverage. If you want to get serious about saving lives, put breathalyzers in every automobile. Increase driver education, training and testing requirements. You'd save more lives in the long run, and you won't even have to amend the Constitution to do it. At the same time, increase gun owner education, training and testing (including background checks), but trying to confiscate every firearm in the country, as many are suggesting, is just as divorced from reality as are the real gun nuts.

[Ian]

"Many" are suggesting trying to confiscate every firearm in the country? No, very few are saying that - and nobody who has any concept of what is practical. Something like 10% would like to see the 2nd Amendment abolished, give or take. I do agree that (while I at least admire their idealism) they are just as divorced from reality as all the gun fetish people.

[FBM]

I meant that "many" internationally.

[JimC]

I meant that "many" internationally.

Well, most of the international critics of your gun laws and gun culture are also realists. We may view the continued clinging to the second amendment as a historical anachronism, cultivated as patriotic spin by selfish gun nutters. However, we well understand that any program of gun reform with more than a snowflake's chance in hell won't go much further than Obama's current proposals.