5 Ways Modern Men Are Trained to Hate Women

[Coito ergo sum]

I don't know that I agree with that. I think the idea that men only see women as tits with legs is an overdone and largely incorrect stereotype.

But, a note regarding the passage from the book about the breasts moving under the clothing -- that wasn't written as if she was thinking those things. It's written in the third person narrative, from the point of view of a narrator, not the point of view of the woman in question. We don't know her thoughts there. She may be oblivious to her appearance.

[Audley Strange]

??? Yes, I think about boobs all the time. Used to get made fun of for it when I was in grad school-- my characters often, ahem, displayed my proclivities. But I'm not exactly straight. And I don't think women loving boobs precludes men loving them. I'm not sure I'm getting your point.

That I think it is easy to recognise an issue in others but be oblivious to it in yourself (plural) and that the criticisms laid at the door of men are not representative of men but of humanity regardless or race, doctrine, gender or anything. Honestly? He's right about Martin and King too, in so far as they often focus on descriptions of boobs, but bad writing hardly makes it a man thing or a negative.

Well, here's the thing-- As much as I like boobs (including my own), the only time I'd consider the way they feel, brushing nakedly against the inside of my clothes is if I'm on my way to the sexytimes. My sense of the story quote in question is that the author was at least in theory just describing his image of this woman going about her business, so his description of her sensuous boob thoughts is funny to read-- an inadvertent self-reveal of the author's fantasies. Akin to Steve Martin's comment the he "could never be a woman. [He'd] just stay home and play with his breasts all day."

You don't think that's entertaining?

Having read close to 4000 pages of Martin, no, god no. I do take the point though, you don't get authors generally saying "Tim was angry his underlings were not listening, he stood on the table, his warm soft penis lightly brushing across his hairy thigh as he did". But points to Martin as having a limitation in describing women in his writing, it's hardly Russ Meyers.

[Coito ergo sum]

You work in the arts Hades, I'm not buying that you think that "appearence" is trivial in customer facing industry for men or women. My local restaurantes have males and females serving, our politicians are derided on their looks all the time, you know why? It's the sort of chinwag gossip the red-tops know that will sell papers TO WOMEN.

Appearance is absolutely not trivial to sales, or to acting roles. It is trivial to Supreme Court justices.

I never heard anyone evaluate a SCOTUS nominee's fitness as a sex partner. Are there any examples?

That was in the article. Did you read it?

From my experience, if there is a fundamental difference between male and female sexuality, it's this: There are actual occasions where women aren't thinking about sex. Here, let me show you an extreme example. I'm going to quote a Free Republic thread again, because I quite frankly can't stop reading them. These are some comments they made about a female public figure, and I want you to guess who it is:
"Her face is so ugly you can smash it into some dough and make gorilla cookies."
"So fugly, I'd say 'don't even look'!!!"
"At least Medusa was modestly attractive by comparison."
"This person is disgusting and I would never trust 'it's' opinion on ANYTHING!"
Have you guessed? They're talking about Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan.


Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5- ... z2IF2O8Vz5

i did, but what some jerks write in a forum called "The Free Republic" is not indicative of our overall culture. I was wondering if you had examples of this occurring in the mainstream media, indicating that it has some general acceptance.

Governor Christie, on the other hand, is asked about his weight all the time -- http://todaynews.today.com/_news/2012/1 ... ident?lite - I've never heard a female politician criticized in the mainstream media for being possibly too fat to serve in office.

Even another Governor - Jerry Brown - mocked his fatness: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/0 ... wn_to.html

And, here is a website listing 10 of the ugliest politicians -- 9 are male -- http://www.indecisionforever.com/blog/2 ... -very-ugly - the 10th is Sarah Palin and the honorable mention is Michelle Bachmann. No actually physically ugly females are listed.

That is why criticisms of female looks are highlighted more and considered worse than criticism of male looks. Because it's forever been no big deal to criticize a male for his appearance, and traditionally bashing a woman's looks has been a social no-no.

And, there are plenty of open evaluations of male politicians and their physical appearance.

2011 -- article about the top 5 ugliest politicians -- http://www.tntmagazine.com/news/weird/t ... ns-of-2011

"...we would not want to bump into Newt Gingrich in a dark alley because he's so damn ugly."

"David Cameron's appearance has been compared to a boiled ham, a condom and a naan bread with a side-parting, amongst other things."

"Despite being short and weird looking, Sarkozy..."

Boris Johnson "...look like some sort of blobby, gelatinous yeti."

The fifth ugly politician is Eric Pickles.

No females in the top 5 at all, incidentally.

Top 10 ugliest male celebrities: http://listverse.com/2007/09/08/top-10- ... lebrities/

[Tyrannical]

I think what many people forget including the Cracked writer is that women are the harshest critics of other women. They judge other women's clothes, makeup, and fashion in ways men may never notice. Women love their shoes, and men never seem to notice.

Gay men notice. More than women do. Generally speaking.

I refuse to believe the Legally Blond stereo type is that common.

[Cormac]

You work in the arts Hades, I'm not buying that you think that "appearence" is trivial in customer facing industry for men or women. My local restaurantes have males and females serving, our politicians are derided on their looks all the time, you know why? It's the sort of chinwag gossip the red-tops know that will sell papers TO WOMEN.

Appearance is absolutely not trivial to sales, or to acting roles. It is trivial to Supreme Court justices.

I never heard anyone evaluate a SCOTUS nominee's fitness as a sex partner. Are there any examples?

That was in the article. Did you read it?

From my experience, if there is a fundamental difference between male and female sexuality, it's this: There are actual occasions where women aren't thinking about sex. Here, let me show you an extreme example. I'm going to quote a Free Republic thread again, because I quite frankly can't stop reading them. These are some comments they made about a female public figure, and I want you to guess who it is:
"Her face is so ugly you can smash it into some dough and make gorilla cookies."
"So fugly, I'd say 'don't even look'!!!"
"At least Medusa was modestly attractive by comparison."
"This person is disgusting and I would never trust 'it's' opinion on ANYTHING!"
Have you guessed? They're talking about Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan.


Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5- ... z2IF2O8Vz5

i did, but what some jerks write in a forum called "The Free Republic" is not indicative of our overall culture. I was wondering if you had examples of this occurring in the mainstream media, indicating that it has some general acceptance.

Governor Christie, on the other hand, is asked about his weight all the time -- http://todaynews.today.com/_news/2012/1 ... ident?lite - I've never heard a female politician criticized in the mainstream media for being possibly too fat to serve in office.

Even another Governor - Jerry Brown - mocked his fatness: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/0 ... wn_to.html

And, here is a website listing 10 of the ugliest politicians -- 9 are male -- http://www.indecisionforever.com/blog/2 ... -very-ugly - the 10th is Sarah Palin and the honorable mention is Michelle Bachmann. No actually physically ugly females are listed.

That is why criticisms of female looks are highlighted more and considered worse than criticism of male looks. Because it's forever been no big deal to criticize a male for his appearance, and traditionally bashing a woman's looks has been a social no-no.

And, there are plenty of open evaluations of male politicians and their physical appearance.

2011 -- article about the top 5 ugliest politicians -- http://www.tntmagazine.com/news/weird/t ... ns-of-2011

"...we would not want to bump into Newt Gingrich in a dark alley because he's so damn ugly."

"David Cameron's appearance has been compared to a boiled ham, a condom and a naan bread with a side-parting, amongst other things."

"Despite being short and weird looking, Sarkozy..."

Boris Johnson "...look like some sort of blobby, gelatinous yeti."

The fifth ugly politician is Eric Pickles.

No females in the top 5 at all, incidentally.

Top 10 ugliest male celebrities: http://listverse.com/2007/09/08/top-10- ... lebrities/

Blobby gelatinous yeti!



And yet, he is probably the politician today most like Churchill - once considered a buffoon, now Britons most loved Briton.

[hadespussercats]

??? Yes, I think about boobs all the time. Used to get made fun of for it when I was in grad school-- my characters often, ahem, displayed my proclivities. But I'm not exactly straight. And I don't think women loving boobs precludes men loving them. I'm not sure I'm getting your point.

That I think it is easy to recognise an issue in others but be oblivious to it in yourself (plural) and that the criticisms laid at the door of men are not representative of men but of humanity regardless or race, doctrine, gender or anything. Honestly? He's right about Martin and King too, in so far as they often focus on descriptions of boobs, but bad writing hardly makes it a man thing or a negative.

Well, here's the thing-- As much as I like boobs (including my own), the only time I'd consider the way they feel, brushing nakedly against the inside of my clothes is if I'm on my way to the sexytimes. My sense of the story quote in question is that the author was at least in theory just describing his image of this woman going about her business, so his description of her sensuous boob thoughts is funny to read-- an inadvertent self-reveal of the author's fantasies. Akin to Steve Martin's comment the he "could never be a woman. [He'd] just stay home and play with his breasts all day."

You don't think that's entertaining?

Having read close to 4000 pages of Martin, no, god no. I do take the point though, you don't get authors generally saying "Tim was angry his underlings were not listening, he stood on the table, his warm soft penis lightly brushing across his hairy thigh as he did". But points to Martin as having a limitation in describing women in his writing, it's hardly Russ Meyers.

I would respond to this, but I'm not quite sure what you mean by any of it.

[hadespussercats]

You work in the arts Hades, I'm not buying that you think that "appearence" is trivial in customer facing industry for men or women. My local restaurantes have males and females serving, our politicians are derided on their looks all the time, you know why? It's the sort of chinwag gossip the red-tops know that will sell papers TO WOMEN.

Appearance is absolutely not trivial to sales, or to acting roles. It is trivial to Supreme Court justices.

I never heard anyone evaluate a SCOTUS nominee's fitness as a sex partner. Are there any examples?

That was in the article. Did you read it?

From my experience, if there is a fundamental difference between male and female sexuality, it's this: There are actual occasions where women aren't thinking about sex. Here, let me show you an extreme example. I'm going to quote a Free Republic thread again, because I quite frankly can't stop reading them. These are some comments they made about a female public figure, and I want you to guess who it is:
"Her face is so ugly you can smash it into some dough and make gorilla cookies."
"So fugly, I'd say 'don't even look'!!!"
"At least Medusa was modestly attractive by comparison."
"This person is disgusting and I would never trust 'it's' opinion on ANYTHING!"
Have you guessed? They're talking about Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan.


Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5- ... z2IF2O8Vz5

i did, but what some jerks write in a forum called "The Free Republic" is not indicative of our overall culture. I was wondering if you had examples of this occurring in the mainstream media, indicating that it has some general acceptance.

Governor Christie, on the other hand, is asked about his weight all the time -- http://todaynews.today.com/_news/2012/1 ... ident?lite - I've never heard a female politician criticized in the mainstream media for being possibly too fat to serve in office.

Even another Governor - Jerry Brown - mocked his fatness: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/0 ... wn_to.html

And, here is a website listing 10 of the ugliest politicians -- 9 are male -- http://www.indecisionforever.com/blog/2 ... -very-ugly - the 10th is Sarah Palin and the honorable mention is Michelle Bachmann. No actually physically ugly females are listed.

That is why criticisms of female looks are highlighted more and considered worse than criticism of male looks. Because it's forever been no big deal to criticize a male for his appearance, and traditionally bashing a woman's looks has been a social no-no.

And, there are plenty of open evaluations of male politicians and their physical appearance.

2011 -- article about the top 5 ugliest politicians -- http://www.tntmagazine.com/news/weird/t ... ns-of-2011

"...we would not want to bump into Newt Gingrich in a dark alley because he's so damn ugly."

"David Cameron's appearance has been compared to a boiled ham, a condom and a naan bread with a side-parting, amongst other things."

"Despite being short and weird looking, Sarkozy..."

Boris Johnson "...look like some sort of blobby, gelatinous yeti."

The fifth ugly politician is Eric Pickles.

No females in the top 5 at all, incidentally.

Top 10 ugliest male celebrities: http://listverse.com/2007/09/08/top-10- ... lebrities/

I don't understand how the fact that men are sometimes judged by their looks changes the fact that women are too.

And you'd said you'd never heard of such an instance-- which is why I wondered if you'd read the article in question.

As for mainstream media examples of women being inappropriately judged based on sexual attractiveness, well, they're out there. But I don't care enough about defending D.W.'s mediocre article (which was clearly engineered to generate links and outrage, not moderate, insightful discussion) to go looking for them.

I do think he makes some sound points in there. A few. But he's writing for entertainment. Cracked doesn't pay the rent with titles that make passers-by think "Of course-- I agree with that" as they move on by.

[hadespussercats]

I think what many people forget including the Cracked writer is that women are the harshest critics of other women. They judge other women's clothes, makeup, and fashion in ways men may never notice. Women love their shoes, and men never seem to notice.

Gay men notice. More than women do. Generally speaking.

I refuse to believe the Legally Blond stereo type is that common.

What a bizarre place to decide you're going to draw a line in the sand, Tyrannical.

It was a stereotype looooooong before Reese Witherspoon arrived on the scene.

[Audley Strange]

??? Yes, I think about boobs all the time. Used to get made fun of for it when I was in grad school-- my characters often, ahem, displayed my proclivities. But I'm not exactly straight. And I don't think women loving boobs precludes men loving them. I'm not sure I'm getting your point.

That I think it is easy to recognise an issue in others but be oblivious to it in yourself (plural) and that the criticisms laid at the door of men are not representative of men but of humanity regardless or race, doctrine, gender or anything. Honestly? He's right about Martin and King too, in so far as they often focus on descriptions of boobs, but bad writing hardly makes it a man thing or a negative.

Well, here's the thing-- As much as I like boobs (including my own), the only time I'd consider the way they feel, brushing nakedly against the inside of my clothes is if I'm on my way to the sexytimes. My sense of the story quote in question is that the author was at least in theory just describing his image of this woman going about her business, so his description of her sensuous boob thoughts is funny to read-- an inadvertent self-reveal of the author's fantasies. Akin to Steve Martin's comment the he "could never be a woman. [He'd] just stay home and play with his breasts all day."

You don't think that's entertaining?

Having read close to 4000 pages of Martin, no, god no. I do take the point though, you don't get authors generally saying "Tim was angry his underlings were not listening, he stood on the table, his warm soft penis lightly brushing across his hairy thigh as he did". But points to Martin as having a limitation in describing women in his writing, it's hardly Russ Meyers.

I would respond to this, but I'm not quite sure what you mean by any of it.

Succinctly, I don't find it entertaining because it is ubiquitous. Authors don't tend to add "cock" to their common descriptions of men. I don't think it points towards anything other than bad writing.

[Coito ergo sum]

Succinctly, I don't find it entertaining because it is ubiquitous. Authors don't tend to add "cock" to their common descriptions of men. I don't think it points towards anything other than bad writing.

Well, it wouldn't make sense to describe the cock if the guy is dressed, unless he is wearing like spandex or something, in which case i think an author might well point out the bulge. Cocks are described probably just as much as vulvas - mainly because normally they're covered up in scenes. In sex scenes or nude scenes, an author will describe them, depending on how graphic the writing is to be.

But tits are more like a man's bulging pecs - which often will get described. Writers will write about men's musclulature and other things that paint a picture of what a person looking at the scene being written about would see. Breasts are generally more prominent, and when they are moving underneath a sweater or something that can be seen, and can add to the visual.

[Audley Strange]

Yeah well "bulging pecs" is still not common, at least it's not in the literature I read.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Hades, men think a lot about boobs when the culture they're in hides them. Go to Black's Beach south of LA sometime, you'll see a different attitude about boobs on the beach than you will on Creeps' Hill overlooking that beach.

Sure. But David Wong isn't writing about those cultures.

And I zipped right past him to the larger picture.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yeah well "bulging pecs" is still not common, at least it's not in the literature I read.

Harlequin Romances.

[Coito ergo sum]

Yeah well "bulging pecs" is still not common, at least it's not in the literature I read.

Not that quote, but the physical appearance of men is still done in popular novels. Remember, we're not talking classic literature here - this is more pulp.

[Audley Strange]

Well if you go to prole-feed as a measure of culture, you get what you pay for.