5 Ways Modern Men Are Trained to Hate Women

[hadespussercats]

Always Wong, never Wight.

[hadespussercats]

Okay, so I'm actually reading the article now, and it's not nearly so bad as you all are making it out to be. For instance, this bit?

Yes, even in that setting, when judging a female for a position on the highest court in the land, our instinct is still to judge her suitability as a sex partner. It's the first thing we notice. And you could just write that off as a bunch of douches being shallow, but then you have to realize how all of society has conformed to this. Forget about objectification in the media or fashion industry -- go to a diner, they've got the pretty girl waiting tables. Go to a department store, they'll have a pretty girl selling you pants.

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5- ... z2IDCjm0M1

is pretty spot-on. Any woman who is in the public eye will be derided first for her looks, no matter what else she's done that might deserve derision.

And this?

Right now I'm reading a book from mega-selling fantasy author George R. R. Martin. The following is a passage where he is writing from the point of view of a woman -- always a tough thing for men to do. The girl is on her way to a key confrontation, and the narrator describes it thusly:
"When she went to the stables, she wore faded sandsilk pants and woven grass sandals. Her small breasts moved freely beneath a painted Dothraki vest ..."
That's written from the woman's point of view. Yes, when a male writes a female, he assumes that she spends every moment thinking about the size of her breasts and what they are doing. "Janet walked her boobs across the city square. 'I can see them staring at my boobs,' she thought, boobily."


Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5- ... z2IDEd5Vgg

is pretty damn funny. And tell me that's not true, that men think about boobs a lot. A lot a lot. And I will tell you that you are probably a liar. In my experience, even gay men like boobs. Though their standards might be a little different from the straight folks.

I think where Wong becomes so off-putting is that he's using "we" a lot, to show some sort of solidarity with the buffoons who comment on Reddit and MRA sites. I've got some theories why he might have chosen to do that, but I'm not sure.

But when he talks about hatred for the pretty girl showing cleavage at grannie's funeral, I think he's talking about the mindset that leads to burqua culture. You men aren't part of that. But because he keeps saying "we," and painting you all with the same brush, you feel (rightfully) offended, instead of seeing the point he's trying to make about certain kinds of men in patriarchal cultures.

Anyway, I should finish the article now. But I just wanted to get that all down while I was thinking of it.

[Audley Strange]

Hatred? Really? Hatred? Not common social conditioning based on traditionalised gender roles, but HATE?! As in enemies that we want to suffer and die?

What annoys me (rather than offends) is that this is not an example of any men I've ever met, but rather it seems to me to be a caricature projected out by a certain class of vocal androphobes who are the first to bitch about being stereotyped and defamed as a group.

You work in the arts Hades, I'm not buying that you think that "appearence" is trivial in customer facing industry for men or women. My local restaurantes have males and females serving, our politicians are derided on their looks all the time, you know why? It's the sort of chinwag gossip the red-tops know that will sell papers TO WOMEN.

Also, tell me women don't think about boobs a lot, A LOT. Too saggy, too small, too big. There is whole industries developed because of women's obsessions with their tits, perhaps not to please men, but perhaps because it is the primal survival unit for all humans and they have an instinctual fixation with them.

I'm not denying some of these traditional social things are detrimental, I'm denying that A) It's all men's doing and B) Men hate Women. That there seems to be some people who think this is the case, who can spout such ideology to the extent that they are causing young men to feel like misogynists for having a penis. That's exactly the kind of oppressive behaviour that apparently we're meant to all be humanists in fighting against.

[hadespussercats]

Hatred? Really? Hatred? Not common social conditioning based on traditionalised gender roles, but HATE?! As in enemies that we want to suffer and die?

What annoys me (rather than offends) is that this is not an example of any men I've ever met, but rather it seems to me to be a caricature projected out by a certain class of vocal androphobes who are the first to bitch about being stereotyped and defamed as a group.

Well, yes. That's what I was trying to get at when I talked about Reddit fans and MRA activists.

You work in the arts Hades, I'm not buying that you think that "appearence" is trivial in customer facing industry for men or women. My local restaurantes have males and females serving, our politicians are derided on their looks all the time, you know why? It's the sort of chinwag gossip the red-tops know that will sell papers TO WOMEN.

Appearance is absolutely not trivial to sales, or to acting roles. It is trivial to Supreme Court justices.

Also, tell me women don't think about boobs a lot, A LOT. Too saggy, too small, too big. There is whole industries developed because of women's obsessions with their tits, perhaps not to please men, but perhaps because it is the primal survival unit for all humans and they have an instinctual fixation with them.

??? Yes, I think about boobs all the time. Used to get made fun of for it when I was in grad school-- my characters often, ahem, displayed my proclivities. But I'm not exactly straight. And I don't think women loving boobs precludes men loving them. I'm not sure I'm getting your point.

I'm not denying some of these traditional social things are detrimental, I'm denying that A) It's all men's doing and B) Men hate Women. That there seems to be some people who think this is the case, who can spout such ideology to the extent that they are causing young men to feel like misogynists for having a penis. That's exactly the kind of oppressive behaviour that apparently we're meant to all be humanists in fighting against.

Yes, I think he did himself and his article a big disservice by acting like he could be the mouthpiece for all men. I think he should have had the balls to treat the commenters he was deriding as boneheaded others. But maybe D.W. really sees himself as part of that group?

At any rate, I certainly don't think all men all hate all women. Just some. And women participate in the system, in various ways.

[Audley Strange]

]
Appearance is absolutely not trivial to sales, or to acting roles. It is trivial to Supreme Court justices.

I agree. It is trivial and in fact so trivial that those who make such claims are making trivial ones. Who makes these cheap criticisms? Are they likely to make similar claims on Scalia being old or fat? Even in high office appearence is everything, you know that, that's why we give them theatrical costumes. Look at the sexualised way they tried to punt Obama to the ladies. It might have well been "This thanksgiving try the dark meat."

It's lowbrow but common just like the statement that defines such. 70% how you look, 20% how you sound, 10% what you say.

??? Yes, I think about boobs all the time. Used to get made fun of for it when I was in grad school-- my characters often, ahem, displayed my proclivities. But I'm not exactly straight. And I don't think women loving boobs precludes men loving them. I'm not sure I'm getting your point.

That I think it is easy to recognise an issue in others but be oblivious to it in yourself (plural) and that the criticisms laid at the door of men are not representative of men but of humanity regardless or race, doctrine, gender or anything. Honestly? He's right about Martin and King too, in so far as they often focus on descriptions of boobs, but bad writing hardly makes it a man thing or a negative.

Yes, I think he did himself and his article a big disservice by acting like he could be the mouthpiece for all men. I think he should have had the balls to treat the commenters he was deriding as boneheaded others. But maybe D.W. really sees himself as part of that group?

Perceptive, I think.This is exactly what I see as being the problem. All these little negative groups, maligning a self created stereotype developed not out of objective observation but rather by observing their own attitudes behaviours and biases and aggressively projecting them towards others rather than fix themselves, because they can't be wrong. Cult thinking.

At any rate, I certainly don't think all men all hate all women. Just some. And women participate in the system, in various ways.

Yeah but the "just some" are the pain in the arses that are the problem in every one of these groups, because they're the crazy authoritarians that make mountains out of molehills while everyone else is trying to fine tune that system. Again I find it sad that such nutty ideological thinking is used to make young men and young women feel like shit.

[Robert_S]

Is the article going over the top in an attempt to be funny and provocative at the expense of accuracy?

Perhaps a better title would have been "Five Common Reasons Some Men Resent Women" it would have been more accurate. But I don't think that title would have gotten the attention it did. Where I think it really goes wrong is in going from critiquing the culture and popular background assumptions in #5. (We Were Told That Society Owed Us a Hot Girl) and #4. (We're Trained from Birth to See You as Decoration) to trying to provide a biological justification in the rest of the article.


Whatever its flaws though, it probably gets more people thinking than would otherwise and doesn't seem to stray too far into the self pity that I see a lot of in 1st World Feminism and the some parts of the MRA movement.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Hades, men think a lot about boobs when the culture they're in hides them. Go to Black's Beach south of LA sometime, you'll see a different attitude about boobs on the beach than you will on Creeps' Hill overlooking that beach.

[Tyrannical]

I think what many people forget including the Cracked writer is that women are the harshest critics of other women. They judge other women's clothes, makeup, and fashion in ways men may never notice. Women love their shoes, and men never seem to notice.

[Coito ergo sum]

Okay, so I'm actually reading the article now, and it's not nearly so bad as you all are making it out to be. For instance, this bit?

Yes, even in that setting, when judging a female for a position on the highest court in the land, our instinct is still to judge her suitability as a sex partner. It's the first thing we notice. And you could just write that off as a bunch of douches being shallow, but then you have to realize how all of society has conformed to this. Forget about objectification in the media or fashion industry -- go to a diner, they've got the pretty girl waiting tables. Go to a department store, they'll have a pretty girl selling you pants.

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5- ... z2IDCjm0M1

is pretty spot-on. Any woman who is in the public eye will be derided first for her looks, no matter what else she's done that might deserve derision.

Some men do. But, then, so do women of men. It's just that they're more open about actually wanting to have sex with some of them, like Obama groupies, and women who wanted to know what kind of underwear Bill Clinton wore. Men also opined about Sarah Palin and other physically attractive females.

It's not unusual to evaluate people's appearances. That's what happens the first time we meat anyone, and women do it to.

And this?

Right now I'm reading a book from mega-selling fantasy author George R. R. Martin. The following is a passage where he is writing from the point of view of a woman -- always a tough thing for men to do. The girl is on her way to a key confrontation, and the narrator describes it thusly:
"When she went to the stables, she wore faded sandsilk pants and woven grass sandals. Her small breasts moved freely beneath a painted Dothraki vest ..."
That's written from the woman's point of view. Yes, when a male writes a female, he assumes that she spends every moment thinking about the size of her breasts and what they are doing. "Janet walked her boobs across the city square. 'I can see them staring at my boobs,' she thought, boobily."

That's written from third person point of view, not first person. If it was from the character's point of view, then it would be "I went to the stables and I wore faded sandsilk and sandals. My small breasts moved freely beneath..."

I'd need to know the context of that description. Perhaps there is a reason to highlight sexuality there. Maybe she's going to encounter a love interest or lust interest?

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5- ... z2IDEd5Vgg

is pretty damn funny. And tell me that's not true, that men think about boobs a lot. A lot a lot. And I will tell you that you are probably a liar. In my experience, even gay men like boobs. Though their standards might be a little different from the straight folks.

Even women like like boobs, in my experience. And, yes, men think about boobs a lot. But, don't women think of men's bodies a lot?

I think where Wong becomes so off-putting is that he's using "we" a lot, to show some sort of solidarity with the buffoons who comment on Reddit and MRA sites. I've got some theories why he might have chosen to do that, but I'm not sure.

But when he talks about hatred for the pretty girl showing cleavage at grannie's funeral, I think he's talking about the mindset that leads to burqua culture. You men aren't part of that. But because he keeps saying "we," and painting you all with the same brush, you feel (rightfully) offended, instead of seeing the point he's trying to make about certain kinds of men in patriarchal cultures.

Anyway, I should finish the article now. But I just wanted to get that all down while I was thinking of it.

He's not talking about other men in other patriarchal cultures or burqa culture. He's talking about American or "western" men in general.

[Coito ergo sum]

You work in the arts Hades, I'm not buying that you think that "appearence" is trivial in customer facing industry for men or women. My local restaurantes have males and females serving, our politicians are derided on their looks all the time, you know why? It's the sort of chinwag gossip the red-tops know that will sell papers TO WOMEN.

Appearance is absolutely not trivial to sales, or to acting roles. It is trivial to Supreme Court justices.

I never heard anyone evaluate a SCOTUS nominee's fitness as a sex partner. Are there any examples?

Also, tell me women don't think about boobs a lot, A LOT. Too saggy, too small, too big. There is whole industries developed because of women's obsessions with their tits, perhaps not to please men, but perhaps because it is the primal survival unit for all humans and they have an instinctual fixation with them.

??? Yes, I think about boobs all the time. Used to get made fun of for it when I was in grad school-- my characters often, ahem, displayed my proclivities. But I'm not exactly straight. And I don't think women loving boobs precludes men loving them. I'm not sure I'm getting your point.

I'm not sure what is wrong with loving boobs, or using sexualized imagery in writing to paint a picture. But, apparently Mr. Wong thinks that makes men hate women, or that men think women evilly think about boobs as much as men which is why they would describe boobs in a written work.

[hadespussercats]

??? Yes, I think about boobs all the time. Used to get made fun of for it when I was in grad school-- my characters often, ahem, displayed my proclivities. But I'm not exactly straight. And I don't think women loving boobs precludes men loving them. I'm not sure I'm getting your point.

That I think it is easy to recognise an issue in others but be oblivious to it in yourself (plural) and that the criticisms laid at the door of men are not representative of men but of humanity regardless or race, doctrine, gender or anything. Honestly? He's right about Martin and King too, in so far as they often focus on descriptions of boobs, but bad writing hardly makes it a man thing or a negative.

Well, here's the thing-- As much as I like boobs (including my own), the only time I'd consider the way they feel, brushing nakedly against the inside of my clothes is if I'm on my way to the sexytimes. My sense of the story quote in question is that the author was at least in theory just describing his image of this woman going about her business, so his description of her sensuous boob thoughts is funny to read-- an inadvertent self-reveal of the author's fantasies. Akin to Steve Martin's comment the he "could never be a woman. [He'd] just stay home and play with his breasts all day."

You don't think that's entertaining?

[hadespussercats]

Hades, men think a lot about boobs when the culture they're in hides them. Go to Black's Beach south of LA sometime, you'll see a different attitude about boobs on the beach than you will on Creeps' Hill overlooking that beach.

Sure. But David Wong isn't writing about those cultures.

[hadespussercats]

I think what many people forget including the Cracked writer is that women are the harshest critics of other women. They judge other women's clothes, makeup, and fashion in ways men may never notice. Women love their shoes, and men never seem to notice.

Gay men notice. More than women do. Generally speaking.

[hadespussercats]

Okay, so I'm actually reading the article now, and it's not nearly so bad as you all are making it out to be. For instance, this bit?

Yes, even in that setting, when judging a female for a position on the highest court in the land, our instinct is still to judge her suitability as a sex partner. It's the first thing we notice. And you could just write that off as a bunch of douches being shallow, but then you have to realize how all of society has conformed to this. Forget about objectification in the media or fashion industry -- go to a diner, they've got the pretty girl waiting tables. Go to a department store, they'll have a pretty girl selling you pants.

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5- ... z2IDCjm0M1

is pretty spot-on. Any woman who is in the public eye will be derided first for her looks, no matter what else she's done that might deserve derision.

Some men do. But, then, so do women of men. It's just that they're more open about actually wanting to have sex with some of them, like Obama groupies, and women who wanted to know what kind of underwear Bill Clinton wore. Men also opined about Sarah Palin and other physically attractive females.

It's not unusual to evaluate people's appearances. That's what happens the first time we meat anyone, and women do it to.

And this?

Right now I'm reading a book from mega-selling fantasy author George R. R. Martin. The following is a passage where he is writing from the point of view of a woman -- always a tough thing for men to do. The girl is on her way to a key confrontation, and the narrator describes it thusly:
"When she went to the stables, she wore faded sandsilk pants and woven grass sandals. Her small breasts moved freely beneath a painted Dothraki vest ..."
That's written from the woman's point of view. Yes, when a male writes a female, he assumes that she spends every moment thinking about the size of her breasts and what they are doing. "Janet walked her boobs across the city square. 'I can see them staring at my boobs,' she thought, boobily."

That's written from third person point of view, not first person. If it was from the character's point of view, then it would be "I went to the stables and I wore faded sandsilk and sandals. My small breasts moved freely beneath..."

I'd need to know the context of that description. Perhaps there is a reason to highlight sexuality there. Maybe she's going to encounter a love interest or lust interest?

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5- ... z2IDEd5Vgg

is pretty damn funny. And tell me that's not true, that men think about boobs a lot. A lot a lot. And I will tell you that you are probably a liar. In my experience, even gay men like boobs. Though their standards might be a little different from the straight folks.

Even women like like boobs, in my experience. And, yes, men think about boobs a lot. But, don't women think of men's bodies a lot?

I think where Wong becomes so off-putting is that he's using "we" a lot, to show some sort of solidarity with the buffoons who comment on Reddit and MRA sites. I've got some theories why he might have chosen to do that, but I'm not sure.

But when he talks about hatred for the pretty girl showing cleavage at grannie's funeral, I think he's talking about the mindset that leads to burqua culture. You men aren't part of that. But because he keeps saying "we," and painting you all with the same brush, you feel (rightfully) offended, instead of seeing the point he's trying to make about certain kinds of men in patriarchal cultures.

Anyway, I should finish the article now. But I just wanted to get that all down while I was thinking of it.

He's not talking about other men in other patriarchal cultures or burqa culture. He's talking about American or "western" men in general.

Just a few thoughts.

Yes, men are subject to being physically obectified, too. It's usually a little further down the list of criticisms leveled at men, but it certainly happens.
IME, women don't think about any one part of the male anatomy the way people think about boobs.
And if he's not talking about burqua culture, why the picture of a woman in a burqua?

[hadespussercats]

You work in the arts Hades, I'm not buying that you think that "appearence" is trivial in customer facing industry for men or women. My local restaurantes have males and females serving, our politicians are derided on their looks all the time, you know why? It's the sort of chinwag gossip the red-tops know that will sell papers TO WOMEN.

Appearance is absolutely not trivial to sales, or to acting roles. It is trivial to Supreme Court justices.

I never heard anyone evaluate a SCOTUS nominee's fitness as a sex partner. Are there any examples?

That was in the article. Did you read it?

From my experience, if there is a fundamental difference between male and female sexuality, it's this: There are actual occasions where women aren't thinking about sex. Here, let me show you an extreme example. I'm going to quote a Free Republic thread again, because I quite frankly can't stop reading them. These are some comments they made about a female public figure, and I want you to guess who it is:
"Her face is so ugly you can smash it into some dough and make gorilla cookies."
"So fugly, I'd say 'don't even look'!!!"
"At least Medusa was modestly attractive by comparison."
"This person is disgusting and I would never trust 'it's' opinion on ANYTHING!"
Have you guessed? They're talking about Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan.


Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5- ... z2IF2O8Vz5