It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

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Cormac
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Re: It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

Post by Cormac » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:35 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
MrJonno wrote:

You don't get many wrongful arrests because basically its very hard for the police to make such one, very few police arrests are unlawful.

As for restricting speech to prevent an immediate loss of life, of course the police can do this and have done in the past. Don't believe in unlimited anything including speech , everything in life is a compromise
Do you want to talk about situations when there is an "immediate loss of life"in the offing, or were we still going to talk about "likely to create a breach of the peace" or "if you don't want to be arrested, don't offend people."

Saying "don't believe in absolute anything" is a platitude. Good. Nobody believes in an absolute anything. What I take issue with is where you draw the line, which is essentially that if someone starts acting up while another person is speaking in public, then the police ought to arrest the speaker, just in case. It places the power to silence the speaker in the hands of those who disagree with the speaker.

Do you plan to address the examples I gave? Or, you're just going to ignore real world application of the rule in favor of some esoteric idealization?

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Re: It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

Post by MrJonno » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:43 pm

If the police believe they don't have the ability to prevent in their opinion serious unrest (ie a signficant chance of someone getting hurt) I have no problems in shutting down any demonstration for any cause. This does assume of course they can shut it down without causing more problems and they will be expected to justify it latter.

In my home city the police banned in advance a far right group demonstrating in a city that is close to a non-white majority because they couldnt guarantee their safety. Is it unfortunate that they don't have the ability to do so, sure but better that than a bloodbath. There was a previous demo by them and it was very close with the 100 or so demonstraters barely getting out of their alive.

The English Defence League the group I'm refering to are legal and do demonstrate but only where the police have a fair chance of preventing disorder
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Re: It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

Post by Tyrannical » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:45 pm

The US has very liberal free speech laws, and I don't think we have suffered from it. You don't need much more than prohibitions against "fire in a crowded theater" and direct threats or instigation of violence.
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Re: It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:50 pm

Tyrannical wrote:The US has very liberal free speech laws, and I don't think we have suffered from it. You don't need much more than prohibitions against "fire in a crowded theater" and direct threats or instigation of violence.
Agreed. Part of it is adjusting the culture too. Sending out the message that the law will silence your opponents if you act up aggressively is sending the wrong message. That much should be obvious.

Oh, the gays are coming to march down mainstreet? How to shut them down...how to shut them down... Oh, I know -- just get a group of homophobes out there causing disarray and disruption. Best shut the gays down, then. Everyone is happy. The police's job is made easy, and everyone is quiet...just like the State likes it.

How supposed liberals became so authoritarian is beyond me.

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Re: It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

Post by JacksSmirkingRevenge » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:53 pm

If the police don't like what you're saying then they'll just invent a complaint as an excuse to shut you up. They don't need an actual complainant.
I've had them do this at least twice to me as an excuse to start poking their noses around things they wouldn't otherwise have been able to. - Once about an alleged out of date car tax disc (it wasn't) and once because I photographed a copper (the actual "complaint" was "taking photographs of people drinking in public" (I shit you not)).
If they want to arrest someone for calling a horse gay then they'll just invent a complaint without any need to identify the complainant.
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Re: It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:05 pm

JacksSmirkingRevenge wrote:If the police don't like what you're saying then they'll just invent a complaint as an excuse to shut you up. They don't need an actual complainant.
I've had them do this at least twice to me as an excuse to start poking their noses around things they wouldn't otherwise have been able to. - Once about an alleged out of date car tax disc (it wasn't) and once because I photographed a copper (the actual "complaint" was "taking photographs of people drinking in public" (I shit you not)).
If they want to arrest someone for calling a horse gay then they'll just invent a complaint without any need to identify the complainant.
Which is precisely why they don't need even more power. I'd prefer that a trumped up arrest be something cops need to trump up. To adjust the law so that they can arrest you without trumping up the charge doesn't seem to be a benefit to anyone.

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Re: It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

Post by MrJonno » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:09 pm

Doesnt the US have free speech zones for the specific purpose of ensuring public safety?

According to the ACLU Marches /Demonstrations can be restricted on safety grounds same as they are in the UK. They can't restrict what you say but can restrict where,when and how you say it. Opposing demonstrations can be seperated but are allowed in the same general vicinity (which sounds somewhat vague to me).

Some of the UK laws could do with a bit of minor alterations here and there but they are on the whole reasonable and not signficantly different to other Western countries (we allow holocaust denial which most don't)


http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/know-yo ... d-protests
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Re: It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:24 pm

MrJonno wrote:Doesnt the US have free speech zones for the specific purpose of ensuring public safety?
Very controversial, and I oppose them. Traditionally, these zones were opposed by liberals, and supported by law and order conservatives.

The free speech zones tend to move demonstrators away from the thing that they're actually demonstrating. It's like "you can stand in this pen here, blocks away from the Republican Convention" and holler all you like."

MrJonno wrote: According to the ACLU Marches /Demonstrations can be restricted on safety grounds same as they are in the UK.
Not the "same" as in the UK, because here they can't be prohibited. The State or municipal government can't just prohibit demonstrations. They can, however, have a permitting requirements for large demonstrations so that enough police can be allocated to preserve reasonable order. And, they have to be able to organize multiple demonstrations so that there aren't two "million man marches" scheduled for the same place at the same time. These are called "time, place and manner" restrictions -- and such restrictions have to be the least intrusive restrictions and cannot -- under any circumstances - be based on the content of the message being presented.
MrJonno wrote: They can't restrict what you say but can restrict where,when and how you say it.
Not really. These are very limited powers. On public lands, the most they can do is essentially administrative and public health stuff. You can't, say, prohibit protesters from filling Zucotti Park and being all "Occupy Wall Street." But, you can make sure they make way for the city to clean up the park, and such. And, it's not legal to shit in the park, etc.

But, you can bet your bottom dollar, if the city could have prevented the Occupy Wall Street Demonstrations by saying "time, place and manner" and such, then they would have.
MrJonno wrote: Opposing demonstrations can be seperated but are allowed in the same general vicinity (which sounds somewhat vague to me).

Some of the UK laws could do with a bit of minor alterations here and there but they are on the whole reasonable and not signficantly different to other Western countries (we allow holocaust denial which most don't)

http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/know-yo ... d-protests
Police and government officials are allowed to place certain nondiscriminatory and narrowly drawn "time, place and manner" restrictions on the exercise of First Amendment rights. Any such restrictions must apply to all speech regardless of its point of view.
Narrowly drawn -- very important, and that is well-defined. Also, the "regardless of point of view" aspect is very important here. That means that the reaction of the audience or people upset by the racist protester or the abortion advocate gets to speak. It doesn't MATTER that other people are upset.

And, permits are only required:
certain types of events require permits. Generally, these events are:
A march or parade that does not stay on the sidewalk, and other events that require blocking traffic or street closure
A large rally requiring the use of sound amplifying devices; or
A rally at certain designated parks or plazas
if marchers stay on the sidewalks and obey traffic and pedestrian signals, their activity is constitutionally protected even without a permit. Marchers may be required to allow enough space on the sidewalk for normal pedestrian traffic and may not maliciously obstruct or detain passers-by.
Frankly the ACLU page sounds nothing like the situation you describe. Nowhere in there does it say that the police may judge whether someone's speech is likely to inspire some breach of the peace or that cops can determine if "offensive" speech is likely to provoke a violent or hostile response. Quite the opposite. The offensiveness of the speech cannot be taken into account, as that would be basing the police decision on the "content" of the speech.

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Re: It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

Post by MrJonno » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:52 pm

I didnt say how offensive something was, but how likely public disorder was. Ie safety
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Re: It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

Post by Cormac » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:18 pm

Tyrannical wrote:The US has very liberal free speech laws, and I don't think we have suffered from it. You don't need much more than prohibitions against "fire in a crowded theater" and direct threats or instigation of violence.
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Re: It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

Post by Cormac » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:26 pm

MrJonno wrote:Doesnt the US have free speech zones for the specific purpose of ensuring public safety?

According to the ACLU Marches /Demonstrations can be restricted on safety grounds same as they are in the UK. They can't restrict what you say but can restrict where,when and how you say it. Opposing demonstrations can be seperated but are allowed in the same general vicinity (which sounds somewhat vague to me).

Some of the UK laws could do with a bit of minor alterations here and there but they are on the whole reasonable and not signficantly different to other Western countries (we allow holocaust denial which most don't)


http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/know-yo ... d-protests
This is where the UK is appallingly in breach of freedom of speech and freedom of association. It reveals that at its heart, the UK still reserves sovereignty to the state. It is outrageous that the police can decide whether or not a protest can be made. In many parts of the UK, the police can declare any group of people to be an illegal gathering, provided that:

1. There are three or more people "gathered", and
2. You are on a public street.

This power is abused.

How about this - you're free to say what you like in your own home, provided that noone else hears you.

Ridiculous.
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Re: It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:28 pm

MrJonno wrote:I didnt say how offensive something was, but how likely public disorder was. Ie safety
Was it you, or mistermack, that said that "if you don't want to get arrested, don't be offensive?"

But, if people are offended by speech, they are more likely to be agitated by it. Therefore, public disorder becomes more likely as speech becomes more offensive to a given group of people. That is why Muslims tend to get agitated by insults to Mohamet (piss be upon him) but they don't get upset much about insults to Jeebus (cursed be his name), and vice versa. Some Christians, who would be very calm in the face of someone setting fire to a Koran, would get quite disorderly indeed if someone set fire to a Bibble.

See that?

So what are the coppers to do? When are they going to arrest the Koran burner?

Now - one of the things that this kind of speech regulation does, also, is give preference to those who claim to be outraged by someone else's speech. So, if you are able to hold yourself together in the face of someone saying Jesus was a fraud, then you get no protection from that speech from the authorities. If, however, you are unable to remain calm in the face of criticism or insult, then the cops will make sure that people shut up around them.

Sound fair?

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Re: It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

Post by Cormac » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:28 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Tyrannical wrote:The US has very liberal free speech laws, and I don't think we have suffered from it. You don't need much more than prohibitions against "fire in a crowded theater" and direct threats or instigation of violence.
Agreed. Part of it is adjusting the culture too. Sending out the message that the law will silence your opponents if you act up aggressively is sending the wrong message. That much should be obvious.

Oh, the gays are coming to march down mainstreet? How to shut them down...how to shut them down... Oh, I know -- just get a group of homophobes out there causing disarray and disruption. Best shut the gays down, then. Everyone is happy. The police's job is made easy, and everyone is quiet...just like the State likes it.

How supposed liberals became so authoritarian is beyond me.
I have a book somewhere, published by a left wing press, and written by Labour Part activists who'd been the victim of the very oppressive Defence of the Realm Act (DORA). They railed against the injustice and anti-democratic oppression inherent in that appalling Act. The book itself was from the '60s IIRC.

And yet, Tony Bliar arguably tightened the state grip on civil liberties in the UK.
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Re: It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

Post by MrJonno » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:35 pm

Was it you, or mistermack, that said that "if you don't want to get arrested, don't be offensive?"
Didnt say that I but would say if you don't want to be arrested don't be in wrong place at the wrong time, ie you can't really absolutely avoid it.

I was nearly arrested when I was 14, I was pushing a pram at 5 oclock in the morning with a large sack in it.

The police had been shouting at me for 5-10 minutes to stop to ask me what I was doing. I didnt hear them because I had head phones on which the police hadnt noticed.

I was doing a paper round and apart from the porno mag I had pinched wasnt commiting any crimes

Would it have been legal for them arrest me for refusing to stop and walking briskly away , almost certainly.

If the police had known I was wearing headphones probably not
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Re: It is legal to call a police horse "gay"

Post by MrJonno » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:46 pm

This is where the UK is appallingly in breach of freedom of speech and freedom of association. It reveals that at its heart, the UK still reserves sovereignty to the state.
Sovereignty lies with parliament where it is given by the people at election.

If the people had 'sovereignty' at all times they would be able to say I will break any law I feel like it because I pay Mr Policeman's wages. Again its silly idealism to say the people have it at all timez.

One definition of law is one superior group using regulations over an inferior group. Now you can argue who is inferior and superior but I'm telling you its not the individual on top. I can't send a judge to jail he he can send me
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