Untold History of the United States

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Re: Untold History of the United States

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:41 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
klr wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:I've made it clearly. Gawdzilla was having a good ol' laugh at Sandinista for using the term "proper historians". I stated that he should check who used that term first.
Actually, I did.

I know what a "proper historian" is. Sandinista has yet to quote any credible findings or commentary from anyone deserving of that label.
The point is, Gawdzilla thought he was the big man belittling Sandinista for using a silly term, when it turns out his ally in this debate used that term, and Sandi was taking the piss.
Oh, so you failed to make a point. Gotcha.
:think: Are you on drugs? You took the piss out of Sandi, without realising that you were taking the piss out of your ally. :fp:
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Re: Untold History of the United States

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:43 pm

No, I didn't. I showed my contempt for Sandi.
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Re: Untold History of the United States

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:45 pm

You are an idiot. Plain and simple.
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Re: Untold History of the United States

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:45 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:You are an idiot. Plain and simple.
Can't keep up? Not my problem.
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Re: Untold History of the United States

Post by klr » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:50 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
klr wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:I've made it clearly. Gawdzilla was having a good ol' laugh at Sandinista for using the term "proper historians". I stated that he should check who used that term first.
Actually, I did.

I know what a "proper historian" is. Sandinista has yet to quote any credible findings or commentary from anyone deserving of that label.
The point is, Gawdzilla thought he was the big man belittling Sandinista for using a silly term, when it turns out his ally in this debate used that term, and Sandi was taking the piss.
Actually, on at least one occasion, he used it seriously:

Subject: Untold History of the United States
sandinista wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Dunno if these guys are "proper" historians or not...
I like that this was not even given a response by those claiming the truth in myth. Proper historians have, in fact, pointed out that the bombing of Japan was unnecessary and that the whole claim that it was necessary is nothing but an american myth. Of couse, myths die hard for true patriots.
We're still waiting to hear about said historians.

You also used it yourself:
Subject: Untold History of the United States
rEvolutionist wrote:just reading through parts of this book online now:
Racing the enemy: Stalin, Truman, and the surrender of Japan
Hasegawa, Tsuyoshi. Harvard University Press, 2005.


It seems to support the theses, with references (that I haven't got to looking at yet), that the bomb was potentially unnecessary. It claims that Truman didn't await an official rejection from the Japanese regarding the Postdam thingo, and was really doing it for both political reasons at home and to beat the Soviets' entry into the war.

Got another online one to read later which going by the blurb suggests it will directly debate these assertions.

Dunno if these guys are "proper" historians or not... ;)
Firstly, that's just one person. As for the claim in question: The Japanese did reject it, and cable intercepts and transcripts of Japanese discussions have confirmed that this is what the Japanese actually meant, however vaguely they worded it at the time.

Hasegawa went out on a limb in that book, claiming (inter alia) that Truman was motivated primarily by revenge, something for which he offers no compelling evidence. A historian is only as good as their research and their analysis. Other parts of the book are much better, but some of the principal claims are, well, a bit iffy to say to least.
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Re: Untold History of the United States

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:54 pm

klr wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
klr wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:I've made it clearly. Gawdzilla was having a good ol' laugh at Sandinista for using the term "proper historians". I stated that he should check who used that term first.
Actually, I did.

I know what a "proper historian" is. Sandinista has yet to quote any credible findings or commentary from anyone deserving of that label.
The point is, Gawdzilla thought he was the big man belittling Sandinista for using a silly term, when it turns out his ally in this debate used that term, and Sandi was taking the piss.
Actually, on at least one occasion, he used it seriously:

Subject: Untold History of the United States
sandinista wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Dunno if these guys are "proper" historians or not...
I like that this was not even given a response by those claiming the truth in myth. Proper historians have, in fact, pointed out that the bombing of Japan was unnecessary and that the whole claim that it was necessary is nothing but an american myth. Of couse, myths die hard for true patriots.
We're still waiting to hear about said historians.

You also used it yourself:
Subject: Untold History of the United States
rEvolutionist wrote:just reading through parts of this book online now:
Racing the enemy: Stalin, Truman, and the surrender of Japan
Hasegawa, Tsuyoshi. Harvard University Press, 2005.


It seems to support the theses, with references (that I haven't got to looking at yet), that the bomb was potentially unnecessary. It claims that Truman didn't await an official rejection from the Japanese regarding the Postdam thingo, and was really doing it for both political reasons at home and to beat the Soviets' entry into the war.

Got another online one to read later which going by the blurb suggests it will directly debate these assertions.

Dunno if these guys are "proper" historians or not... ;)
What? I was using it as a piss take (as had Sandy earlier), hence why I put it in quotes and put a wink after it. He was carrying on the piss take. Either way, none of that takes away from Gawdzillas fail at trying to be a condescending git to Sandy.
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Re: Untold History of the United States

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:56 pm

Fail again.
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Re: Untold History of the United States

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:04 pm

klr wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
klr wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:I've made it clearly. Gawdzilla was having a good ol' laugh at Sandinista for using the term "proper historians". I stated that he should check who used that term first.
Actually, I did.

I know what a "proper historian" is. Sandinista has yet to quote any credible findings or commentary from anyone deserving of that label.
The point is, Gawdzilla thought he was the big man belittling Sandinista for using a silly term, when it turns out his ally in this debate used that term, and Sandi was taking the piss.
Actually, on at least one occasion, he used it seriously:

Subject: Untold History of the United States
sandinista wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Dunno if these guys are "proper" historians or not...
I like that this was not even given a response by those claiming the truth in myth. Proper historians have, in fact, pointed out that the bombing of Japan was unnecessary and that the whole claim that it was necessary is nothing but an american myth. Of couse, myths die hard for true patriots.
We're still waiting to hear about said historians.

You also used it yourself:
Subject: Untold History of the United States
rEvolutionist wrote:just reading through parts of this book online now:
Racing the enemy: Stalin, Truman, and the surrender of Japan
Hasegawa, Tsuyoshi. Harvard University Press, 2005.


It seems to support the theses, with references (that I haven't got to looking at yet), that the bomb was potentially unnecessary. It claims that Truman didn't await an official rejection from the Japanese regarding the Postdam thingo, and was really doing it for both political reasons at home and to beat the Soviets' entry into the war.

Got another online one to read later which going by the blurb suggests it will directly debate these assertions.

Dunno if these guys are "proper" historians or not... ;)
Firstly, that's just one person.
No, it's two people. This Hasegawa and the other book I mentioned in that quote.
As for the claim in question: The Japanese did reject it, and cable intercepts and transcripts of Japanese discussions have confirmed that this is what the Japanese actually meant, however vaguely they worded it at the time.
The claim this Hasegawa made was that there was no official response from the Japanese at all. Allegedly Truman et al relied on the press conference that the Japanese prime minister gave. The argument was that this press conference was politically scripted for Japanese audiences.
Hasegawa went out on a limb in that book, claiming (inter alia) that Truman was motivated primarily by revenge, something for which he offers no compelling evidence. A historian is only as good as their research and their analysis. Other parts of the book are much better, but some of the principal claims are, well, a bit iffy to say to least.
To be honest, after reading excerpts from both books, I'm not left with much confidence in the presentation of history. Both of them read like a fiction. Both were heavily interpretive. Perhaps as a scientist I will just never get over this doubt about the accuracy of historical narratives. :dunno:
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Re: Untold History of the United States

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:04 pm

Doing history right takes some work. That's why most people get it wrong.
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Re: Untold History of the United States

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:06 pm

There just seem to be a lot of conjecture and filling of the gaps. Well, at least in the bits of the two books I just read.
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Re: Untold History of the United States

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:08 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:There just seem to be a lot of conjecture and filling of the gaps. Well, at least in the bits of the two books I just read.
That's why I put original documents online. So people can track back. The FRUS source I mentioned the other day is also valuable. http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/FRUS/
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Re: Untold History of the United States

Post by klr » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:18 pm

rEvolutionist wrote: ...
As for the claim in question: The Japanese did reject it, and cable intercepts and transcripts of Japanese discussions have confirmed that this is what the Japanese actually meant, however vaguely they worded it at the time.
The claim this Hasegawa made was that there was no official response from the Japanese at all. Allegedly Truman et al relied on the press conference that the Japanese prime minister gave. The argument was that this press conference was politically scripted for Japanese audiences.
Hasegawa went out on a limb in that book, claiming (inter alia) that Truman was motivated primarily by revenge, something for which he offers no compelling evidence. A historian is only as good as their research and their analysis. Other parts of the book are much better, but some of the principal claims are, well, a bit iffy to say to least.
To be honest, after reading excerpts from both books, I'm not left with much confidence in the presentation of history. Both of them read like a fiction. Both were heavily interpretive. Perhaps as a scientist I will just never get over this doubt about the accuracy of historical narratives. :dunno:
Even if it was, it was still broadcast to the world, and counted as an official response to the Declaration. The Japanese were not so ignorant of the basic principles of diplomacy that they didn't understand that. The fact is, the Japanese made no other attempt to communicate any response whatsoever right up until late on August 9th. That is to say, until after both atomic bombs and the invasion of Manchuria. In private as well as public, they ignored the Declaration until they were forced to do otherwise.

The Declaration specifically demanded a quick response:

"5. Following are our terms. We will not deviate from them. There are no alternatives. We shall brook no delay." (emphasis mine)

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Docs/Hiros ... sdam.shtml

If the Japanese had wanted to negotiate - even when faced with an ultimatum - then they could have stated that at the time, without even going into specifics. They didn't say anything, nor were they going to. In fact, when they finally issued a response late on August 9th, it did represent a negotiating position, asking for very major concessions - which were very promptly rejected. Diplomacy can proceed very quickly if both sides want to talk.

As for narratives: Much of the evidence is properly documented in the form of meeting minutes (on both sides) and intercepts of Japanese cables. Compared to many other major historical events, it's actually very well documented.
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Re: Untold History of the United States

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:20 pm

sandinista wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:3. "In waging their bogus "war on terror",..." Yep, that's a give-away. "Bogus" war on terror. Yes, yes, the entire war is "bogus." LOL. There is no such thing as Al Qaeta, they never attacked the US, and there is no reason to be concerned about global terrorism, nuclear/bio/chem proliferation, and international terrorist organizations and rogue totalitarian states. All bogus.
Give away? Give away for what? The "war on terror" is bogus, as is the "war on drugs" both bogus. If the US had a real concern about terrorism they would stop participating in it. That would go further in stopping problems than any bogus "war".
Well, it depends how you look at it, I guess. There is a global terrorism problem, which in its modern form started kicking into high gear in the 1980s. Calling it "bogus" suggests there is nothing to fight. That's what's the give-away, because it is the leftist nonsense that there would be no terrorism but for western democracies engaging in it.
sandinista wrote:[
Coito ergo sum wrote: I read through the article, and it really doesn't add anything to the discussion
haha, as opposed to what you have added I suppose? :fp:
The article's failure to bring anything new to the discussion is not dependent on whether or not I have added anything new.

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Re: Untold History of the United States

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:23 pm

One of the most interesting things about read the "Magic" documents is the way the Japanese were frustrated by the Allies' failure to "understand our true intentions". What they meant was "they don't see what we can't come right out and say because it would make us look bad so we'll just dance around it like we've done for thousands of years in our closed little society and they'll just have to figure things out for themselves." This is even more obvious at the end of the war.
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Re: Untold History of the United States

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:41 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Thus we see how desperate people like sandi can be.
No no...

I found the proof of Sandi's claims... here is the true United States...



We should all be ashamed, and we should understand that North Korea, Iran, Syria, the old Qadaffi regime, the old Soviet Union -- these were the good guys. The US is the great evil in the world.

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The good guys are guys like Castro, who created the benevolent "UMAP" gulags, and he filled them with the "unfit" -- you know -- gays, Jehovah's Witnesses, political dissidents, intellectuals -- you know, "the scum of society."

The good guys are like the Ayatollas in Iran, who impose things like Te Azir -- or "discretionary punishment" where if someone "lies" they can impose 70 or so lashes until the "truth" is told.... and political prisoners, arrested arbitrarily, and forced to "recant" and become "Tawaban." The 1988 prison massacre in Iran was just a good way to help everyone out -- those that did not surrender their conscience and recant their apostasy were hanged. Lashings imposed for not doing daily prayers -- people hanged for participating in Mojahadinn anti-clerical organization, by the thousands. Thousands every year slaughtered for not accepting Islam and for holding dissenting political views.

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