Untold History of the United States

[pErvinalia]

All true. But probably very few people of the time leading up to the decision would have given a shit about that.

[JimC]

All true. But probably very few people of the time leading up to the decision would have given a shit about that.

I posted somewhere earlier about whether, in making ethical judgements of past events, we should apply the current ethical consensus (if such a thing exist), or judge according to the mores of the time...

I'm not coming down on one side or the other, just raising the point that it does make a difference...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Why waste time on them if they're bogus?

So you maintain that these quoted documents don't exist?

Do you know they do?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Rev, have you actually seen those documents, you don't give a source.

Well, that's what I am asking. A number of people/sources have alluded to them. Either those sources are outright lying, or the documents exist. If they exist, those here that dismiss them with opinion are perhaps being as irrational as someone who swallows them unquestionably. If those documents exist, then is there a counter analysis to what Pilger and Stone's historian have made?

The dichotomy isn't valid.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The burden of proof here is on the claimant.

[sandinista]

yah the burden of proof is on the "claimant"...haha this keeps getting better, there have been many claims on both sides. This is almost as good as "proper" historians or "listen to me, I KNOW i was in a war!". Like a dying mans last breaths here.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/FRUS/

[pErvinalia]

Why waste time on them if they're bogus?

So you maintain that these quoted documents don't exist?

Do you know they do?

Rhetorical question are rhetorical. Isn't my position clear?

[pErvinalia]

The burden of proof here is on the claimant.

Information has been provided. Some people have doubted that information. I'm trying to get to the bottom of why you doubt that information. Why are you being so evasive?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Why waste time on them if they're bogus?

So you maintain that these quoted documents don't exist?

Do you know they do?

Rhetorical question are rhetorical. Isn't my position clear?

The article by Pilger contains no citations. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... .warcrimes Pilger is a blatantly partisan writer. Together they say "I got nothing". Evidence will be needed that those documents even exist.

[pErvinalia]

Rev, have you actually seen those documents, you don't give a source.

Well, that's what I am asking. A number of people/sources have alluded to them. Either those sources are outright lying, or the documents exist. If they exist, those here that dismiss them with opinion are perhaps being as irrational as someone who swallows them unquestionably. If those documents exist, then is there a counter analysis to what Pilger and Stone's historian have made?

The dichotomy isn't valid.

What's the other option?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The burden of proof here is on the claimant.

Information has been provided. Some people have doubted that information. I'm trying to get to the bottom of why you doubt that information. Why are you being so evasive?

A blog without citations is not evidence, it's gossip.

[sandinista]

Published on Sunday, August 6, 2006 by CommonDreams.org
Was the Atomic Bombing of Japan Necessary?
by Robert Freeman


Few issues in American history - perhaps only slavery itself - are as charged as the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan. Was it necessary? Merely posing the question provokes indignation, even rage. Witness the hysterical shouting down of the 1995 Smithsonian exhibit that simply dared discuss the question fifty years after the act. Today, another eleven years on, Americans still have trouble coming to terms with the truth about the bombs.

But anger is not argument. Hysteria is not history. The decision to drop the bomb has been laundered through the American myth-making machine into everything from self-preservation by the Americans to concern for the Japanese themselves-as if incinerating two hundred thousand human beings in a second was somehow an act of moral largesse.

Yet the question will not die, nor should it: was dropping the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki a military necessity? Was the decision justified by the imperative of saving lives or were there other motives involved?

The question of military necessity can be quickly put to rest. "Japan was already defeated and dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary." Those are not the words of a latter-day revisionist historian or a leftist writer. They are certainly not the words of an America-hater. They are the words of Dwight D. Eisenhower, Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in Europe and future president of the United States. Eisenhower knew, as did the entire senior U.S. officer corps, that by mid 1945 Japan was defenseless.

After the Japanese fleet was destroyed at Leyte Gulf in October 1944, the U.S. was able to carry out uncontested bombing of Japan's cities, including the hellish firebombings of Tokyo and Osaka. This is what Henry H. Arnold, Commanding General of the U.S. Army Air Forces, meant when he observed, "The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell because the Japanese had lost control of their own air." Also, without a navy, the resource-poor Japanese had lost the ability to import the food, oil, and industrial supplies needed to carry on a World War.

As a result of the naked futility of their position, the Japanese had approached the Russians, seeking their help in brokering a peace to end the War. The U.S. had long before broken the Japanese codes and knew that these negotiations were under way, knew that the Japanese had for months been trying to find a way to surrender.

Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, reflected this reality when he wrote, "The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace.the atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan." Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman, said the same thing: "The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender."

Civilian authorities, especially Truman himself, would later try to revise history by claiming that the bombs were dropped to save the lives of one million American soldiers. But there is simply no factual basis for this in any record of the time. On the contrary, the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey reported, "Certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped." The November 1 date is important because that was the date of the earliest possible planned U.S. invasion of the Japanese main islands.

In other words, the virtually unanimous and combined judgment of the most informed, senior, officers of the U.S. military is unequivocal: there was no pressing military necessity for dropping the atomic bombs on Japan.

But if dropping the bombs was not driven by military needs, why, then, were they used? The answer can be discerned in the U.S. attitude toward the Russians, the way the War ended in Europe, and the situation in Asia.

U.S. leaders had long hated the communist Russian government. In 1919, the U.S. had led an invasion of Russia - the infamous "White Counter Revolution" - to try to reverse the red Bolshevik Revolution that had put the communists into power in 1917. The invasion failed and the U.S. did not extend diplomatic recognition to Russia until 1932.

Then, during the Great Depression, when the U.S. economy collapsed, the Russian economy boomed, growing almost 500%. U.S. leaders worried that with the War's end, the country might fall back into another Depression. And World War II was won not by the American laissez faire system, but by the top-down, command and control over the economy that the Russian system epitomized. In other words, the Russian system seemed to be working while the American system was plagued with recent collapse and a questionable self-confidence.

In addition, to defeat Germany, the Russian army had marched to Berlin through eastern Europe. It occupied and controlled 150,000 square miles of territory in what is today Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Yugoslavia. At Yalta, in February 1945, Stalin demanded to keep this newly occupied territory. Russia, Stalin rightly claimed, had been repeatedly invaded by western Europeans, from Napoleon to the Germans in World War I and now by Hitler. Russia lost more than 20,000,000 lives in World War II and Stalin wanted a buffer against future invasions.

At this point, in February 1945, the U.S. did not know whether the bomb would work or not. But it unquestionably needed Russia's help to end both the War in Europe and the War in the Pacific. These military realities were not lost on Roosevelt: with no army to displace Stalin's in Europe and needing Stalin's support, Roosevelt conceded eastern Europe, handing the Russians the greatest territorial gain of the War.

Finally and perhaps most importantly, Stalin agreed at Yalta that once the War in Europe was over, he would transfer his forces from Europe to Asia and within 90 days would enter the War in the Pacific against Japan. This is where timing becomes critically important. The War in Europe ended on May 8, 1945. May 8 plus 90 days is August 8. If the U.S. wanted to prevent Russia from occupying territory in east Asia the way it had occupied territory in eastern Europe, it needed to end the war as quickly as possible.

This issue of territory in east Asia was especially important because before the war against Japan, China had been embroiled in a civil war of its own. It was the U.S.-favored nationalists under General Chiang Kai Shek against the communists under Mao Ze Dong. If communist Russia were allowed to gain territory in east Asia, it would throw its considerable military might behind Mao, almost certainly handing the communists a victory once the World War was ended and the civil war was resumed.

Once the bomb was proven to work on July 15, 1945, events took on a furious urgency. There was simply no time to work through negotiations with the Japanese. Every day of delay meant more land given up to Russia and, therefore, a greater likelihood of communist victory in the Chinese civil war. All of Asia might go communist. It would be a strategic catastrophe for the U.S. to have won the War against the fascists only to hand it to its other arch enemy, the communists. The U.S. needed to end the War not in months, or even weeks, but in days.

So, on August 6, 1945, two days before the Russians were to declare war against Japan, the U.S. dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. There was no risk to U.S. forces then waiting for a Japanese response to the demand for surrender. The earliest planned invasion of the island was still three months away and the U.S. controlled the timing of all military engagements in the Pacific. But the Russian matter loomed and drove the decision on timing. So, only three days later, the U.S. dropped the second bomb on Nagasaki. The Japanese surrendered on August 14, 1945, eight days after the first bomb was dropped.

Major General Curtis LeMay commented on the bomb's use: "The War would have been over in two weeks without the Russians entering and without the atomic bomb. The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the War at all." Except that it drastically speeded the War's end to deprive the Russians of territory in east Asia.

The story of military necessity, quickly and clumsily pasted together after the War's end, simply does not hold up against the overwhelming military realities of the time. On the other hand, the use of the bomb to contain Russian expansion and to make the Russians, in Truman's revealing phrase, "more manageable," comports completely with all known facts and especially with U.S. motivations and interests.

Which story should we accept, the one that doesn't hold together but that has been sanctifiied as national dogma? Or the one that does hold together but offends our self concept? How we answer says everything about our maturity and our capacity for intellectual honesty.

It is sometimes hard for a people to reconcile its history with its own national mythologies - the mythologies of eternal innocence and Providentially anointed righteousness. It is all the more difficult when a country is embroiled in yet another war and the power of such myths are needed again to gird the people's commitment against the more sobering force of facts.

But the purpose of history is not to sustain myths. It is, rather, to debunk them so that future generations may act with greater awareness to avoid the tragedies of the past. It may take another six or even sixty decades but eventually the truth of the bomb's use will be written not in mythology but in history. Hopefully, as a result, the world will be a safer place.

Robert Freeman writes on economics, history, and education. He can be reached at robertfreeman10@yahoo.com.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0806-25.htm

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Rev, have you actually seen those documents, you don't give a source.

Well, that's what I am asking. A number of people/sources have alluded to them. Either those sources are outright lying, or the documents exist. If they exist, those here that dismiss them with opinion are perhaps being as irrational as someone who swallows them unquestionably. If those documents exist, then is there a counter analysis to what Pilger and Stone's historian have made?

The dichotomy isn't valid.

What's the other option?

That the writer is quote mining. That the writer is distorting the information contained in the documents. Etc.

[pErvinalia]

Why waste time on them if they're bogus?

So you maintain that these quoted documents don't exist?

Do you know they do?

Rhetorical question are rhetorical. Isn't my position clear?

The article by Pilger contains no citations. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... .warcrimes Pilger is a blatantly partisan writer. Together they say "I got nothing". Evidence will be needed that those documents even exist.

Ok, so Pilger et al are lying. Why didn't you just say that intially? Why all the silly games?