Untold History of the United States

[tattuchu]

Wait, are people here actually defending the use of two atomic bombs which obliterated two entire cities, erasing them from the face of the earth along with all their civilian inhabitants? Jesus fucking Christ!

What would you have done instead? Invaded Honshu with a million US soldiers, continued firebombing all of Japanese infrastructure, and smoked out the 2,000,000 defending Japanese soldiers from caves and buildings with flamethrowers?

Well since we're supposed to be the good guys, I would have not committed genocide for starters.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Wait, are people here actually defending the use of two atomic bombs which obliterated two entire cities, erasing them from the face of the earth along with all their civilian inhabitants? Jesus fucking Christ!

Welcome to the real world, Tat.

Not the sort of world I care to live in.

"If the Japanese didn't want bombed, maybe they shouldn't have started the war."

[Coito ergo sum]

Wait, are people here actually defending the use of two atomic bombs which obliterated two entire cities, erasing them from the face of the earth along with all their civilian inhabitants? Jesus fucking Christ!

Welcome to the real world, Tat.

Not the sort of world I care to live in.

None of us want to live in that. Nobody is in favor of dropping atomic bombs, well, not too many people, anyway -- and nobody HERE is in favor of it. And, I think it's fair to say that all of us here would like a world without war in it, if it would be possible. But, under the circumstances of August, 1945, given the largest war in all of history being fought starting in 1939, what would you have done instead? My question still stands.

[Ian]

Wait, are people here actually defending the use of two atomic bombs which obliterated two entire cities, erasing them from the face of the earth along with all their civilian inhabitants? Jesus fucking Christ!

What would you have done instead? Invaded Honshu with a million US soldiers, continued firebombing all of Japanese infrastructure, and smoked out the 2,000,000 defending Japanese soldiers from caves and buildings with flamethrowers?

Well since we're supposed to be the good guys, I would have not committed genocide for starters.

Tat, nobody here is saying there were good options, only degrees of bad ones. If you know of a realistic option that would've ended the war quickly, let's hear it.

[sandinista]

Wait, are people here actually defending the use of two atomic bombs which obliterated two entire cities, erasing them from the face of the earth along with all their civilian inhabitants? Jesus fucking Christ!

yes, although you must take into context those defending it. Fucked I know, what someone will probably say something along the lines of |welcome to the real world" or some dumb shit like that.

A Secret Memorandum

It was only after the war that the American public learned about Japan's efforts to bring the conflict to an end. Chicago Tribune reporter Walter Trohan, for example, was obliged by wartime censorship to withhold for seven months one of the most important stories of the war.

In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)

This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms virtually identical to the ones ultimately accepted by the Americans at the formal surrender ceremony on September 2 -- that is, complete surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. Specifically, the terms of these peace overtures included:

Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war.
Release of all prisoners of war and internees.
Surrender of designated war criminals.

Is this memorandum authentic? It was supposedly leaked to Trohan by Admiral William D. Leahy, presidential Chief of Staff. (See: M. Rothbard in A. Goddard, ed., Harry Elmer Barnes: Learned Crusader [1968], pp. 327f.) Historian Harry Elmer Barnes has related (in "Hiroshima: Assault on a Beaten Foe," National Review, May 10, 1958):

The authenticity of the Trohan article was never challenged by the White House or the State Department, and for very good reason. After General MacArthur returned from Korea in 1951, his neighbor in the Waldorf Towers, former President Herbert Hoover, took the Trohan article to General MacArthur and the latter confirmed its accuracy in every detail and without qualification.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/ ... tions.html

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were almost defeated and ready to surrender...in being the first to use it, we...adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages."

---Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy,
Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during World War II

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL ... ruman.html

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Wait, are people here actually defending the use of two atomic bombs which obliterated two entire cities, erasing them from the face of the earth along with all their civilian inhabitants? Jesus fucking Christ!

What would you have done instead? Invaded Honshu with a million US soldiers, continued firebombing all of Japanese infrastructure, and smoked out the 2,000,000 defending Japanese soldiers from caves and buildings with flamethrowers?

Well since we're supposed to be the good guys, I would have not committed genocide for starters.

Who the fuck did that?

[Coito ergo sum]

Wait, are people here actually defending the use of two atomic bombs which obliterated two entire cities, erasing them from the face of the earth along with all their civilian inhabitants? Jesus fucking Christ!

What would you have done instead? Invaded Honshu with a million US soldiers, continued firebombing all of Japanese infrastructure, and smoked out the 2,000,000 defending Japanese soldiers from caves and buildings with flamethrowers?

Well since we're supposed to be the good guys, I would have not committed genocide for starters.

Err...wut?

Genocide?

Do you mean the Japanese "Rape of Nanking?" The Japanese slaughter of Koreans, and sexual indentured servitude of hundreds of thousands of Korean pleasure women? Or, was it Japan's slaughter of the Philipinos?

What Genocide are you saying the US committed?

And, the question still stands -- you're Harry Truman in August, 1945. What do you do instead?

[sandinista]

[Coito ergo sum]

Wait, are people here actually defending the use of two atomic bombs which obliterated two entire cities, erasing them from the face of the earth along with all their civilian inhabitants? Jesus fucking Christ!

What would you have done instead? Invaded Honshu with a million US soldiers, continued firebombing all of Japanese infrastructure, and smoked out the 2,000,000 defending Japanese soldiers from caves and buildings with flamethrowers?

Well since we're supposed to be the good guys, I would have not committed genocide for starters.

Tat, nobody here is saying there were good options, only degrees of bad ones. If you know of a realistic option that would've ended the war quickly, let's hear it.

Tat, I mean -- wtf? If you're concerned about genocide, then one need look no further than the Japanese racist mass-murdering behavior from the 1920s through the end of the war. What they did to the Chinese, the Koreans, the Philipinos, and others, the Bataan Death March of Allied troops -- I mean -- holy shit -- and we're not supposed to put a stop to a Japanese-supremacist fascist regime?

[tattuchu]

So we can do whatever we like, then, no matter how heinous, because we're the United States and that makes it okay. We make our own rules *waves flag*

With this sort of attitude, we fucking deserved 9-11

I hope Iran makes some nuclear bombs and annihilates our piece of shit country. The last survivors will say, "Hey, that's not fair! Only we get to use nuclear bombs!" And they'll say that right before their skin sloughs off and the last of us fucking retards die of radiation poisoning. And we'll fucking deserve it, every fucking inch of it

[tattuchu]

Wait, are people here actually defending the use of two atomic bombs which obliterated two entire cities, erasing them from the face of the earth along with all their civilian inhabitants? Jesus fucking Christ!

What would you have done instead? Invaded Honshu with a million US soldiers, continued firebombing all of Japanese infrastructure, and smoked out the 2,000,000 defending Japanese soldiers from caves and buildings with flamethrowers?

Well since we're supposed to be the good guys, I would have not committed genocide for starters.

Who the fuck did that?

What do you call wiping two cities full of civilians off the face of the earth? A tea party?

[Ian]

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were almost defeated and ready to surrender...in being the first to use it, we...adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages."

---Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy,
Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during World War II

I'd agree with every word... except that Japan was NOT ready to surrender. Most other countries would have by then, no doubt about it. But Japan was not doing so. Their civilians were placed on rations below the 1000-calorie level. They were prepping their beaches for invasion troops, learning how to use basic weapons, even collecting grass to make a type of fuel since their oil supplies were so low. Their army commanders in the occupied territories were staying put.

I've never seen any evidence that they were about to surrender when Hiroshima happened, only idle speculation. And they still didn't surrender after Hiroshima. And they still didn't surrender after the massive Soviet invasion of Manchuria on August 8th. If you can prove that surrender was indeed imminent, that Tojo and others were preparing or attempting to do so and the US knew it, then let's hear it.

[Jason]

And, the question still stands -- you're Harry Truman in August, 1945. What do you do instead?

Easy. Consider Japan was steeped in the 'way of the samurai' at the time. Issue a public challenge to the Emperor to settle the issue in a duel. As they are of equal status, the Emperor must accept. Win the duel, war over.

[sandinista]

Wait, are people here actually defending the use of two atomic bombs which obliterated two entire cities, erasing them from the face of the earth along with all their civilian inhabitants? Jesus fucking Christ!

What would you have done instead? Invaded Honshu with a million US soldiers, continued firebombing all of Japanese infrastructure, and smoked out the 2,000,000 defending Japanese soldiers from caves and buildings with flamethrowers?

Well since we're supposed to be the good guys, I would have not committed genocide for starters.

Who the fuck did that?

What do you call wiping two cities full of civilians off the face of the earth? A tea party?

Not to mention Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Latin America, Iraq etc.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So we can do whatever we like, then, no matter how heinous, because we're the United States and that makes it okay. We make our own rules *waves flag*

With this sort of attitude, we fucking deserved 9-11

I hope Iran makes some nuclear bombs and annihilates our piece of shit country. The last survivors will say, "Hey, that's not fair! Only we get to use nuclear bombs!" And they'll say that right before their skin sloughs off and the last of us fucking retards die of radiation poisoning. And we'll fucking deserve it, every fucking inch of it

Tat, of all the ways to end the war, this was the fastest, so it saved the most lives. And you can't put our current knowledge of the effects of radiation on the decision-makers back then. If you'd have read the thread you'd know better.