Untold History of the United States

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'm working to at least give people the chance to find out about other countries' participation in WWII.

That would be on the website some people don't think exist, of course.

[Seabass]

I guess that Seabass's point was that you, and a significant chunk of America, do not share the "white cowboy hat" view of the US, Tatt...

My impression is that it's not a significant chunk but more like a small minority.
We are the good guys, by the way. Or at least we're supposed to be. We ought to be. It really bothers me when I found out we're not. And even finding out we're not is difficult, what with all the flags waving in my face

I'm really meaning people who are not "boosters" for the US, who can see many examples of things where the US was at fault, while still appreciating many other aspects of your way of life. Those who unthinkingly accept the "US can do no wrong" premise are not a majority, I would hope...

They are the overwhelming majority, at least from my personal experience.

How can you say this with a straight face?



Consider how the white guilt in this country over slavery, segregation, and treatment of Native Americans is still, to this day, so thick you can cut it with a knife.

Consider all the Vietnam war movies, and how all of them have portrayed the war as an unnecessary, senseless, and tragic loss of human life.

You said earlier that no one cared about the Bush administration's use of torture? Well, that's nonsense to anyone who actually follows the news. That whole torture episode was front page news for years, and was one of the issues that helped Obama get elected. Same with Guantanamo.

Consider how unpopular the Iraq and Afghanistan wars are with the American public.

Consider how Bush left office with the lowest approval ratings ever, and is possibly the least popular and most hated president in American history, with Nixon being his only competition.



I could go on and on, but honestly, it seems your mind is already made up. But from where I'm standing, it seems the one thing Americans can't be accused of is not feeling enough guilt and shame over the sins of our forefathers...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I just watched ten minutes of this crap.

[Ian]

... But from where I'm standing, it seems the one thing Americans can't be accused of is not feeling enough guilt and shame over the sins of our forefathers...

There is a tendency towards guilt and autoschadenfreude these days, no doubt about it. And not without some good reason - even with second-guessing, some American history is quite shameful. But when it comes to the sins of our forefathers, we don't let it consume us, nor should we. Americans are too individualistic for that. I don't feel especially guilty about Vietnam any more than I'm personally proud of Americans walking on the moon. The US was out of Vietnam before I was out of diapers. There are some unquantifiable statutes of limitations on how your nation's history translates to you.

And even if we weren't so individualistic, as the saying goes: "The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there."

[Gawdzilla Sama]

First line I heard was something about us not dropping the atomic bombs. Stupid idea.

[pErvinalia]

What was stupid? That the bombs shouldn't have been dropped? I'm about to watch the second episode. What's your view on the bombs being dropped?

[pErvinalia]

"....in... Tehran... in... Iran... in... November..." Man, his delivery is shocking. I can't believe he didn't re edit some of his narration.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

What was stupid? That the bombs shouldn't have been dropped? I'm about to watch the second episode. What's your view on the bombs being dropped?

If the bombs had not been dropped at least 150,000 allied prisoners would have died in Malaya alone. The IJA commander had given orders that every Allied POW, men, women, and children, was to be killed immediately when the first invader hit the shores there. The invasion was set for August 16th. Showa's order to surrender mentioned the bombs directly.

IF Truman had not used the bombs, the families of the POWs mentioned above, as well as every Allied person killed before the Japanese finally did surrender would have been calling for his balls. "He had a weapons that might have ended the war sooner and didn't use it?" The Republicans would have been delighted to hear this.

[sandinista]

[Coito ergo sum]

What was stupid? That the bombs shouldn't have been dropped? I'm about to watch the second episode. What's your view on the bombs being dropped?

The atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

For me, I understand the necessity, but I wish it had not been. Unfortunately, though, no matter how many times I've reviewed the series of events leading up to the droppings, I can't come to the same conclusion as you -- that they shouldn't have been dropped. The alternative courses of action available to the Allies at the time were worse.

[Coito ergo sum]

What was stupid? That the bombs shouldn't have been dropped? I'm about to watch the second episode. What's your view on the bombs being dropped?

If the bombs had not been dropped at least 150,000 allied prisoners would have died in Malaya alone. The IJA commander had given orders that every Allied POW, men, women, and children, was to be killed immediately when the first invader hit the shores there. The invasion was set for August 16th. Showa's order to surrender mentioned the bombs directly.

IF Truman had not used the bombs, the families of the POWs mentioned above, as well as every Allied person killed before the Japanese finally did surrender would have been calling for his balls. "He had a weapons that might have ended the war sooner and didn't use it?" The Republicans would have been delighted to hear this.

I think World War 2 was such a galvanizing event at the time, that the Republicans would not have been "delighted" as in the sense of a hand-wringing glee that "we've got him now." The sense, as I have come to understand it, of the country in 1941 to 1945 was in the context of an existential crisis. And, yes, the Republicans may well have put blame on Truman for not using an available weapon, but I think every sensible American would have looked at any such refusal to act in horror.

Not only would the POW's you mentioned have been killed, but the Allies would have been left with a conventional invasion of Honshu, which would have required, and plans were already underway to do this, to give the Dresden treatment to every Japanese city - they would all be leveled with firebombs and other bombardments. The Japanese were dug in on Honshu, and you know this better than I do, more deeply than on Iwo Jima and other hole-to-hole meat-grinders that the Allies jumped, one to the next, across the Pacific. Japanese soldiers, motivated, fighting to save their homes and families from the white devils. The allies would have lost hundreds of thousands, and in order to win the Japanese would have to be rooted out house by house, hole by hole. Millions were at risk in a conventional invasion.

Let's cast ourselves back to 1945 -- what seems like yesterday, 1940, was a world already at war and a US trying desperately to stay out of it. A huge percentage of adults had living memories and personal experience with a World War -- the Great War of 1914 to 1918, and they were in no hurry to join another war in Europe and elsewhere "over there." But, there was no way to avoid involvement, with the Germans sinking our shipping vessels in the Atlantic, and the Japanese expansion in the Pacific, and the UK hanging on by a thread, with France overrun, there was really no way to stay out forever. Then the Japanese attacked on 12/7/41, and we were in. War declared on Japan, and then on Japan's ally, Germany, et al. Then 3-4 years of knock-down, drag out, war starting in Africa and in the South Pacific -- American troops everywhere from St. Petersburg Russia, to the Philippines, to China to Algeria -- all over the place. Initial defeats and embarrassments, as the fact that Germany had the greatest military ever seen, and allied with Japan, who probably had the second greatest military ever seen, started hitting home. MacArthur chased out of the Phillipines, having to promise to return. Rommell chewing us up and spitting us out in the desert.

Existential crisis.

As late as June, 1944, we had not broken Fortress Europe, and the Americans and Brits were fighting a hellish island-hopping war -- filling holes with flamethrower bursts, and battling suicide units, inch by inch. We hear a lot about how "the war was already over" and there was no reason to drop the bombs because they were going to surrender anyway, and that Germany too was going to surrender anyway. The fact that D-Day in June 1944 was a huge gamble, and one that could very easily have gone bad due to intelligence failures, weather and a host of other problems, should really highlight the fact that the Allies had an uphill battle even in the last year of the war.

So, now to July-August 1945. 4 years of war for the US. 6 years of war for the UK. A generation of death notices sent home to a generation of mothers and fathers. A weapon is developed that is a game changer. It will end the war. Do you use it, or continue fighting with the same conventional weapons that have been used for the last several years? Another year of bloody war -- or August 6 and August 9 - and a meeting on the USS Missouri?

[MrJonno]

Atomic bombs were a neccessary evil to prevent even greater ones , doesnt change the fact it was evil and no one should be proud of dropping them or any other bombing raids.

It's one thing to be proud of serving country another to be specifically proud of killing anyone

[Coito ergo sum]

Atomic bombs were a neccessary evil to prevent even greater ones , doesnt change the fact it was evil and no one should be proud of dropping them or any other bombing raids.

It's one thing to be proud of serving country another to be specifically proud of killing anyone

Sure, but who is expressing pride?

War in general is evil, and we wish it never happened. But, wars would not go away if the US wasn't around.

[MrJonno]

Atomic bombs were a neccessary evil to prevent even greater ones , doesnt change the fact it was evil and no one should be proud of dropping them or any other bombing raids.

It's one thing to be proud of serving country another to be specifically proud of killing anyone

Sure, but who is expressing pride?

War in general is evil, and we wish it never happened. But, wars would not go away if the US wasn't around.

Just saying you that things in life can't be divided up into right or wrong only more right or less wrong

[Coito ergo sum]

So what? I didn't even mention right and wrong, you did. I said that the consequences and alternatives associated with not dropping the available bombs were worse than the consequences of dropping them, both for the US and for Japan.