Untold History of the United States

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You're speaking in code again. Why don't you watch the first ep and report back? It's linked earlier in this thread.

rEv, I've been studying WWII since 1963. The Japanese got their asses handed to them at Nomonhan by the Red Army. They couldn't defeat the Soviets. They couldn't defeat the fucking Chinese, and they were having a civil war DURING the Japanese incursions for several years.

The fact that you didn't bother Googling Nomonhan in the context of this thread leads me to believe you would believe anything Stone says. It's a TV show, there's no requirement for veracity, nor to adhere to facts or reality. If you get your history from the babble you deserve what you get.

[Audley Strange]

Oliver Stone made "The Doors" it was one of the worst movies ever made.

That is all.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Oliver Stone made "The Doors" it was one of the worst movies ever made.

That is all.

He made "JFK", which is 110% fiction. After watching it I doubted we ever had a president by that name.

[pErvinalia]

You're speaking in code again. Why don't you watch the first ep and report back? It's linked earlier in this thread.

rEv, I've been studying WWII since 1963. The Japanese got their asses handed to them at Nomonhan by the Red Army. They couldn't defeat the Soviets. They couldn't defeat the fucking Chinese, and they were having a civil war DURING the Japanese incursions for several years.

The fact that you didn't bother Googling Nomonhan in the context of this thread leads me to believe you would believe anything Stone says.

No, I just refuse to have conversations via wikipedia. It's a forum, ffs. It's a place to discuss things. That's why I come here. Not to be pointed off to another place.

And I did google it eventually, given I knew you'd have a tanty. I don't profess to be anything near a scholar on WWII (or much history, for that matter). But what Stone said made sense to me. You'd need to debunk his specific claims if you want to teach me anything, not pull an argument from authority fallacy. The point I believe he was making was that if they both attacked Russia at the same time, then they would have won. Russia only defeated the Germans because they were able to pull 40 companies/battalions/whatever from their siberian front to the western front because they had absolutely nothing to fear from the east. I can't remember the chronology of the events, but I'm pretty sure this all happened towards the end of the war, not the start.

It's a TV show, there's no requirement for veracity, nor to adhere to facts or reality. If you get your history from the babble you deserve what you get.

As Sandi said, all history is babble to a degree. History is massively laden with interpretation. Hearing different interpretations is a good thing, not a bad thing.

[sandinista]

zilla not liking the doc is almost as good a recommendation as seth not liking it. What makes me lol is that zilla notes that he has "studied" ww2 history since 63 or whatever so for some reason we should take his word. I've told him the same thing, that I've studied US foreign policy for over 20 years but he would never lay down and consider me an expert. speaking out of both sides of his ass.

[pErvinalia]

Oi, Sandi, i've got a new forum. Come check it out. It's just getting started. I've pre-banned zilla there, so even if he just looks at the site it bans him on the spot...

[sandinista]

Oi, Sandi, i've got a new forum. Come check it out. It's just getting started. I've pre-banned zilla there, so even if he just looks at the site it bans him on the spot...

link? no need to ban zilla, I enjoy the humor.

[pErvinalia]

yeah, he's not banned. He's afraid to step into my lions den though.

www.rationalforums.org

[sandinista]

cool, I'll check that out, thanks.

[JimC]

Well his thesis was that if the Japanese had of gone west into Russia instead of south into Asia, together the Japs and Nazi's would have crushed the Russians. It also wouldn't have got the Americans so into the war, as Pearl Harbour would never have happened.

A problem with this "what if" is an analysis of Japanese motivation. A key strategic objective was southern Asia, with much in the way of oil, food and natural resources, as well as an asian population that they thought they could easily wean away from European domination.

To do that required a primarily naval war (and naval warfare, as they saw it, was their strength). The US was the biggest obstacle to the success of such a war, hence Pearl Harbour.

[FBM]

IIRC, the Japanese did make a push into the USSR, conscripting a bunch of Koreans to do mining and logging to feed their war machine. However, consider the cost-to-benefit. It wasn't very populated, so the Japanese had to supply most of the manpower from abroad, as well as the logistical support for that manpower. However, that area didn't produce much, if anything, that SE Asia couldn't, mostly timber and minerals. SE Asia had that plus oil and local populations ready to be conscripted, as well as local food supplies. It was also a fuck of a lot warmer, so timber production and mining could carry on year-round, while those operations would grind to a halt in the upper latititudes during winter. Without a coordinated strategy with Berlin, what motivation would they have to go the hard way?

[pErvinalia]

I think that was the point. There was no coordination and if there was (and agreement) then they could have finished Russia off. Then presumably they could have finished the brits off.

[FBM]

I think that was the point. There was no coordination and if there was (and agreement) then they could have finished Russia off. Then presumably they could have finished the brits off.

If Japan, primarily a naval force, could have overcome the logistical barriers to move sufficient forces thousands of miles inland with so few local resources. I'm not sure they could have done so and still have been a serious threat to the USSR. Fuel and food supply lines would have had to stretch mighty far and they would've had to endure at least one winter in the field, I think. Anyway, it's all hypothetical now.

[pErvinalia]

Didn't they already hold half of China?

[FBM]

Didn't they already hold half of China?

Hush.