Restricting constitutional feeedoms.

[Azathoth]

[pErvinalia]

[Seth]

Wrong. You're arguing that it is good becuz animals do it. It's nature, therefore good. Naturalistic fallacy dood.

I can't believe Rev and I are on the same page here. You misunderstand the argument. It's good because it's pro-survival of the organism, which is a requirement for life, propagation and evolution. Life is an innate "good thing" and so behaviors that protect, enhance and preserve life are likewise innately good, because as Rev says, without that innate morality of life being worthy of protection no living thing would exist.

You said that better than I could.

Although, I would argue with that last point. There would still be living things, but life would be short and miserable. And in all likelihood, wouldn't lead to high intelligence. Actually, the reality is that intelligence (and therefore overt cognitions about preserving one's life) are almost certainly likely to develop in any reasonably stable system given enough time. The reason is that evolution selects for survival. Life really couldn't end up any other way.

That's why the right to life, the right to property, and the right to self defense are natural Organic Rights. They are innately good because without all of them the organism cannot survive, and the first imperative of life is that the organism survive at least long enough to reproduce.

The problem with this, as we've argued about ad-infinitum in the past, is that deriving "rights" from states of being is missing some crucial steps.

Such as?

[pErvinalia]

not going there. would rather insert a burnt stick up my bum.

[laklak]

not going there. would rather insert a burnt stick up my bum.

Oooooooo! Rough trade, darl.

[Gallstones]

Good for the individual maybe. We all know that evolution doesnt favor the individual

But it requires the individual to pass on its genes, so it provides the individual with the tools necessary for survival and the drive to do so.

LOL. You need to lay off the booze, Seth. You've just defined the game of golf.

Uhm,.....huh?

[Gallstones]

Wrong. You're arguing that it is good becuz animals do it. It's nature, therefore good. Naturalistic fallacy dood.

I can't believe Rev and I are on the same page here. You misunderstand the argument. It's good because it's pro-survival of the organism, which is a requirement for life, propagation and evolution. Life is an innate "good thing" and so behaviors that protect, enhance and preserve life are likewise innately good, because as Rev says, without that innate morality of life being worthy of protection no living thing would exist.

I.....don't think so.
There is nothing innatley good about life, nor is there any innate worthiness to it.
Life just is and will eventually just not be no matter what we--humans--do or want.

That's why the right to life, the right to property, and the right to self defense are natural Organic Rights. They are innately good because without all of them the organism cannot survive, and the first imperative of life is that the organism survive at least long enough to reproduce.

There is no innate or inherent right to anything except what an organism declare that it has one and is willing and able to assert it. Despite the most vociferous efforts in that regard, ultimately it will be for naught as all things will perish regardless of what one wills.

[Gallstones]

P1 Life is better than no life

Sez who dood?
Provide warrants for your first premise. (yeah I studied logic and argumentation in a fucking university)


Dood.

Sez me, dood.

You want to debate that no life is better than life, go right ahead. I'm accepting the premise as true because I'm a living creature and without life we wouldn't be having this debate, therefore life is better than no life.

When there is no life there is no awareness of better or worse. There is no anything

[pErvinalia]

yeah, but we are having this debate from the existence of life. So your objections are not relevant.

[FBM]

Seems like a value judgement to me. No absolute right or wrong that can be objectively verified, like whether Scarlett Johannsen is prettier than Lee Hyori. Or whether or not life is worth living at all.

[Jason]

Pretty much. Except there's no objective basis of comparison. It's why I don't bother arguing with doods. Most of the time.

[pErvinalia]

In short - life is good (well at the very least, not bad) because if it wasn't then we wouldn't be able to sit around and have conversations about whether life (and other stuff) was good or bad or neither. It's a little bit like people getting all consternated over the anthropic principle. It's the same concept.

[JimC]

The totalitarian does seem to, as a general proposition, want to control people's "attitudes."

You don't control attitudes but democracy is about saying how or whether these attitudes can be put into practice.

Gun owner attitude he wants a gun for self defence, my attitude no one should be allowed to prepare for self defence whether its with a gun, knife or karate

A little over the top, IMO...

I agree that a well-regulated society should have police etc. as a main agency to deter violence by citizen on citizen, but they are not always going to be around. Even if the techniques one learns mainly involve defusing violence, there may come a time where some basic self-defence skills are pretty vital. Some martial arts schools get too macho, and go way over the top, sure, and you know I'm not a fan of citizens owning pistols for self-defence, but I think you have perhaps confirmed for Seth and others some sort of stereotype of the ultimate defenceless liberal...

[MrJonno]

little over the top, IMO...

I agree that a well-regulated society should have police etc. as a main agency to deter violence by citizen on citizen, but they are not always going to be around. Even if the techniques one learns mainly involve defusing violence, there may come a time where some basic self-defence skills are pretty vital. Some martial arts schools get too macho, and go way over the top, sure, and you know I'm not a fan of citizens owning pistols for self-defence, but I think you have perhaps confirmed for Seth and others some sort of stereotype of the ultimate defenceless liberal...

I'm sensible enough to realise that if someone really wants me dead they will succeed, all you can do is try and build a society where this is less likely, o

I didnt say martial arts should be banned I said they shouldnt be promoted as self defence, if you think you are more capable of doing well in a fight you are more likely to get involved in one.

I am indeed having a go at Seth's basic ideology of the self reliant, master of their own desinty bullshit. We are cogs in a machine, in a decent society you have a choice of which cog you are but you can't do more than a few well. The electrian does the electrics, plumber does the plumbing, police doing the beating up of criminals I work with computer systems and pay people to do these roles

[Seth]

little over the top, IMO...

I agree that a well-regulated society should have police etc. as a main agency to deter violence by citizen on citizen, but they are not always going to be around. Even if the techniques one learns mainly involve defusing violence, there may come a time where some basic self-defence skills are pretty vital. Some martial arts schools get too macho, and go way over the top, sure, and you know I'm not a fan of citizens owning pistols for self-defence, but I think you have perhaps confirmed for Seth and others some sort of stereotype of the ultimate defenceless liberal...

I'm sensible enough to realise that if someone really wants me dead they will succeed, all you can do is try and build a society where this is less likely, o

I didnt say martial arts should be banned I said they shouldnt be promoted as self defence, if you think you are more capable of doing well in a fight you are more likely to get involved in one.

I am indeed having a go at Seth's basic ideology of the self reliant, master of their own desinty bullshit. We are cogs in a machine, in a decent society you have a choice of which cog you are but you can't do more than a few well. The electrian does the electrics, plumber does the plumbing, police doing the beating up of criminals I work with computer systems and pay people to do these roles

Man, you really have gorged on the Marxist Kool-Aid. What a sorry example you set for humanity.