Restricting constitutional feeedoms.

[Animavore]

One gun in the hands of a law-abiding citizen, or the Principal at Sandy Hook Elementary could have stopped this attack cold.

That you can't seem to understand this is, well, not at all remarkable.

This is fantasy bullshit borne out of watching too many Die Hard movies (or probably Die Hard was borne from the fantasy). Are you honestly telling me if a gunman had burst into the class and took out an armed teacher straight away before turning his gun on the kids this would be prevented?
Sure another teacher from another class might hear the gun blasts and run to the rescue but by then it would be to late. He may even end up shot himself while the gunman, with his flak jacket, continues unharmed to the now unprotected class that teacher came from.
Not only that killing another human doesn't come easily to most people and even a moments hesitation gives the gunman the advantage.
There have been many of these massacres already and when has the gunman ever been stopped?


The variables are endless. I'm not anti-gun myself but at least be realistic about it.

[Tero]

Seth:How about zero alcohol of any kind, and zero recreational pot, and zero prescribed medications that affect judgment or motor skills negatively?

T: Sounds good, but I was going for alcohol, so that the bouncer can keep guns or bullets locked up, as well as car keys.
Till you go pick them up sober. We can give them breathalyzers.

[Gallstones]

Not at all. I have zero problem with the concept that the right to self defense is inherent and unquestionable, and that it also indicates the right to own the means of effectively defending oneself

There should be no 'right' to self defence merely it is legal in a restricted number of circumstances.

There is something seriously fucked with any individual that even thinks of self defence , sod banning guns I would ban any martial arts that advertises itself as 'self defence'. If they want to advertise as a sport or a way of keeping fair enough but if they in any way advertise is a way to hit people outside competitions or an arena is should be banned.

I think you have that twisted round wrong.

[Seth]

One gun in the hands of a law-abiding citizen, or the Principal at Sandy Hook Elementary could have stopped this attack cold.

That you can't seem to understand this is, well, not at all remarkable.

This is fantasy bullshit borne out of watching too many Die Hard movies (or probably Die Hard was borne from the fantasy). Are you honestly telling me if a gunman had burst into the class and took out an armed teacher straight away before turning his gun on the kids this would be prevented?
Sure another teacher from another class might hear the gun blasts and run to the rescue but by then it would be to late. He may even end up shot himself while the gunman, with his flak jacket, continues unharmed to the now unprotected class that teacher came from.
Not only that killing another human doesn't come easily to most people and even a moments hesitation gives the gunman the advantage.
There have been many of these massacres already and when has the gunman ever been stopped?


The variables are endless. I'm not anti-gun myself but at least be realistic about it.

Yes, there are many variables, and no, a gun in the school in the hands of a law-abiding citizen might not stop the massacre...sometimes you die. But, what we know absolutely for certain is that NO GUNS in the hands of anyone in the school other than the murderer is CERTAIN to end in greater tragedy.

Imagine what might have happened if the Principal, upon hearing the commotion, had pulled out a shotgun or M4 rifle from a locker next to her desk and had engaged the shooter in the main hallway, before he got to the classrooms.

This is essentially what happened in Colorado Springs on December 9, 2007 at the New Life Church. A deranged murderer shot and killed two teenagers and wounded two other people in the parking lot during services. When he walked into the building, bearing several firearms, Jeanne Assam, an armed volunteer security guard (one of several drawn from the congregation) ran towards the assailant firing her weapon and succeeded in wounding him sufficiently that he committed suicide a moment later.

In Pearl, Mississippi, on October 1, 1997, a student shot and killed two and wounded seven others at Pearl High School, then went to his mother's car (whom he had murdered earlier) to go to a nearby elementary school. Vice Principal Joel Myrick, upon hearing the shots, ran outside to his truck to retrieve his .45 pistol, but because he wasn't allowed to carry it, the killer had finished shooting and was trying to escape and go kill more kids. Myrick was able to stop the killer and hold him at gunpoint until the police arrived.

I personally interviewed Myrick at the 1998 Soldier of Fortune convention in Las Vegas, where he was awarded honors for his actions by Publisher Col. Robert K. Brown. Myrick said that if he had been armed when the killer entered the school, he could have prevented the killer from killing more than his first two victims, his ex-girlfriend and another girl.

There are other examples of citizens with guns stopping mass murder sprees. You can go look them up if you like.

[Jason]

How's Obama's push to ban assault weapons going? I hope he gets a few advisors so it's more well thought out this time and includes high capacity magazines.

[Seth]

Seth:How about zero alcohol of any kind, and zero recreational pot, and zero prescribed medications that affect judgment or motor skills negatively?

T: Sounds good, but I was going for alcohol, so that the bouncer can keep guns or bullets locked up, as well as car keys.
Till you go pick them up sober. We can give them breathalyzers.

I don't have a problem with that, not that any bar would want to take on the liability of holding a firearm for a patron. It's certainly possible for a bar to install a wall full of gun lockers at the entrance where an armed citizen can (if he wishes to patronize the bar) lock up his gun, keeping the key, and can retrieve it after demonstrating that he's sober, or come back and get it the next day.

Most people either leave their gun in their car or they simply refrain from drinking alcohol...in those states where it's even legal to take a concealed handgun into a bar (like Colorado). Many states that allow concealed carry prohibit taking them into any establishment that serves liquor by the drink, others only restrict bars, taverns and parts of a licensed premises that are "primarily used for serving alcohol by the drink" while allowing them in a restaurant area. Think Outback Steakhouse. You can sit in the restaurant, but not in the bar.

[Seth]

How's Obama's push to ban assault weapons going? I hope he gets a few advisors so it's more well thought out this time and includes high capacity magazines.

I'm sure it's perking right along. He's already put VP Joe (Motormouth) Biden, one of the most anti-gun members of Congress ever, in charge of taking in suggestions and coordinating the drafting of bills, several of which are in the hopper already.

It's a toss-up whether the House will pass any draconian gun control bill and Obama knows it, but he's dancing on the graves of the kids anyway so he can try to gain some political ammunition against the Republicans for obstructing "reasonable gun control efforts," which in Progressivespeak means "total gun bans" as the ultimate goal.

[Animavore]

One gun in the hands of a law-abiding citizen, or the Principal at Sandy Hook Elementary could have stopped this attack cold.

That you can't seem to understand this is, well, not at all remarkable.

This is fantasy bullshit borne out of watching too many Die Hard movies (or probably Die Hard was borne from the fantasy). Are you honestly telling me if a gunman had burst into the class and took out an armed teacher straight away before turning his gun on the kids this would be prevented?
Sure another teacher from another class might hear the gun blasts and run to the rescue but by then it would be to late. He may even end up shot himself while the gunman, with his flak jacket, continues unharmed to the now unprotected class that teacher came from.
Not only that killing another human doesn't come easily to most people and even a moments hesitation gives the gunman the advantage.
There have been many of these massacres already and when has the gunman ever been stopped?


The variables are endless. I'm not anti-gun myself but at least be realistic about it.

Yes, there are many variables, and no, a gun in the school in the hands of a law-abiding citizen might not stop the massacre...sometimes you die. But, what we know absolutely for certain is that NO GUNS in the hands of anyone in the school other than the murderer is CERTAIN to end in greater tragedy.

Imagine what might have happened if the Principal, upon hearing the commotion, had pulled out a shotgun or M4 rifle from a locker next to her desk and had engaged the shooter in the main hallway, before he got to the classrooms.

This is essentially what happened in Colorado Springs on December 9, 2007 at the New Life Church. A deranged murderer shot and killed two teenagers and wounded two other people in the parking lot during services. When he walked into the building, bearing several firearms, Jeanne Assam, an armed volunteer security guard (one of several drawn from the congregation) ran towards the assailant firing her weapon and succeeded in wounding him sufficiently that he committed suicide a moment later.

In Pearl, Mississippi, on October 1, 1997, a student shot and killed two and wounded seven others at Pearl High School, then went to his mother's car (whom he had murdered earlier) to go to a nearby elementary school. Vice Principal Joel Myrick, upon hearing the shots, ran outside to his truck to retrieve his .45 pistol, but because he wasn't allowed to carry it, the killer had finished shooting and was trying to escape and go kill more kids. Myrick was able to stop the killer and hold him at gunpoint until the police arrived.

I personally interviewed Myrick at the 1998 Soldier of Fortune convention in Las Vegas, where he was awarded honors for his actions by Publisher Col. Robert K. Brown. Myrick said that if he had been armed when the killer entered the school, he could have prevented the killer from killing more than his first two victims, his ex-girlfriend and another girl.

There are other examples of citizens with guns stopping mass murder sprees. You can go look them up if you like.

I suppose. I get your point. There can be no doubt anyone who takes out such a person is anything but a hero and should be hailed as such. And conversely anyone who was packing and did nothing out of cowardice is best to keep that shit to themselves. Lie and tell everyone you left it at home or in your car that day if you have to.

I'm not fully sure of the argument of an armed society over an unarmed. I live in a country with limited access to guns (shotguns and rifles) legally and with little gun murders and the ones that do occur tend to be between gang members few people have sympathy for. We've no history of (non-terrorist related) massacres but neither did Britain 'til Dunblaine.

I'm happy living here with gun laws as is but if I moved to America I'd almost certainly hit the ranges and own a handgun for protection - so, work that one out

[Jason]

Never mind that a person not trained in threat response is much more likely to freeze-up, be unable to bring their weapon to bear before they're shot, or shoot innocent people before being shot themselves, than to actually pull a quick-draw and put a bullet through the forehead of the gunman in less than .75 seconds.

I suppose it's possible they could be out of danger and come running in, weapon already drawn and ready to fire. I still give them poor odds on actually hitting the gunman before they're killed unless they manage to take him by surprise. Perhaps waiting outside the schoolroom until he's done with all the kids in there and makes to leave.

[Kristie]

Never mind that a person not trained in threat response is much more likely to freeze-up, be unable to bring their weapon to bear before they're shot, or shoot innocent people before being shot themselves, than to actually pull a quick-draw and put a bullet through the forehead of the gunman in less than .75 seconds.

I suppose it's possible they could be out of danger and come running in, weapon already drawn and ready to fire. I still give them poor odds on actually hitting the gunman before they're killed unless they manage to take him by surprise. Perhaps waiting outside the schoolroom until he's done with all the kids in there and makes to leave.

But they do it in movies all the time! Movies don't lie!

[Tyrannical]

One gun in the hands of a law-abiding citizen, or the Principal at Sandy Hook Elementary could have stopped this attack cold.

That you can't seem to understand this is, well, not at all remarkable.

This is fantasy bullshit borne out of watching too many Die Hard movies (or probably Die Hard was borne from the fantasy). Are you honestly telling me if a gunman had burst into the class and took out an armed teacher straight away before turning his gun on the kids this would be prevented?
Sure another teacher from another class might hear the gun blasts and run to the rescue but by then it would be to late. He may even end up shot himself while the gunman, with his flak jacket, continues unharmed to the now unprotected class that teacher came from.
Not only that killing another human doesn't come easily to most people and even a moments hesitation gives the gunman the advantage.
There have been many of these massacres already and when has the gunman ever been stopped?


The variables are endless. I'm not anti-gun myself but at least be realistic about it.

Even if you were right, what harm is there if some faculty were armed and trained to deal with these situations? I think if it were known that several of the faculty were armed and prepared for this situation it would never have happened.

[Jason]

One gun in the hands of a law-abiding citizen, or the Principal at Sandy Hook Elementary could have stopped this attack cold.

That you can't seem to understand this is, well, not at all remarkable.

This is fantasy bullshit borne out of watching too many Die Hard movies (or probably Die Hard was borne from the fantasy). Are you honestly telling me if a gunman had burst into the class and took out an armed teacher straight away before turning his gun on the kids this would be prevented?
Sure another teacher from another class might hear the gun blasts and run to the rescue but by then it would be to late. He may even end up shot himself while the gunman, with his flak jacket, continues unharmed to the now unprotected class that teacher came from.
Not only that killing another human doesn't come easily to most people and even a moments hesitation gives the gunman the advantage.
There have been many of these massacres already and when has the gunman ever been stopped?


The variables are endless. I'm not anti-gun myself but at least be realistic about it.

Even if you were right, what harm is there if some faculty were armed and trained to deal with these situations? I think if it were known that several of the faculty were armed and prepared for this situation it would never have happened.

I think that Seth didn't mention anything about training and that such 'training' needs to be more well defined. I think also, that if I were a gunman, I'd make sure to target the designated defence force first. Take them out quiet like, one at a time. Maybe with a silencer or something. Like an evil commando.

[Kristie]

One gun in the hands of a law-abiding citizen, or the Principal at Sandy Hook Elementary could have stopped this attack cold.

That you can't seem to understand this is, well, not at all remarkable.

This is fantasy bullshit borne out of watching too many Die Hard movies (or probably Die Hard was borne from the fantasy). Are you honestly telling me if a gunman had burst into the class and took out an armed teacher straight away before turning his gun on the kids this would be prevented?
Sure another teacher from another class might hear the gun blasts and run to the rescue but by then it would be to late. He may even end up shot himself while the gunman, with his flak jacket, continues unharmed to the now unprotected class that teacher came from.
Not only that killing another human doesn't come easily to most people and even a moments hesitation gives the gunman the advantage.
There have been many of these massacres already and when has the gunman ever been stopped?


The variables are endless. I'm not anti-gun myself but at least be realistic about it.

Even if you were right, what harm is there if some faculty were armed and trained to deal with these situations? I think if it were known that several of the faculty were armed and prepared for this situation it would never have happened.

I think that Seth didn't mention anything about training and that such 'training' needs to be more well defined. I think also, that if I were a gunman, I'd make sure to target the designated defence force first. Take them out quiet like, one at a time. Maybe with a silencer or something. Like an evil commando.

Like how bank robbers go straight for the security dude! Just like in movies, I tell ya!!

[Jason]

Pretty much, yeah. I hate to say it, but I'm noticing a trend in the Black Guard gun-defence force - all of them seem to have hero complexes, a lot of them like to hang around the periphery of the military or police forces, and few of them have any idea what it's like to be in a situation where you're being shot at and have to respond quickly and accurately.

[Coito ergo sum]

The totalitarian does seem to, as a general proposition, want to control people's "attitudes."

You don't control attitudes but democracy is about saying how or whether these attitudes can be put into practice.

Gun owner attitude he wants a gun for self defence, my attitude no one should be allowed to prepare for self defence whether its with a gun, knife or karate

That's ridiculous. Nobody should be allowed to "prepare for self-defense?" What about by doing push-ups and pull ups to strengthen one's physical ability so one is not overpowered? Runner training, so one can outrun an aggressor? Practicing with a baseball or cricket bat, to ensure one can swing it nice and hard to hit an intruder over the head?

"Nobody should be allowed to prepare..." -- this is authoritarian and totalitarian nonsense. Of course they should be allowed to prepare. To say they shouldn't is like saying they shouldn't be allowed to wear bullet proof vests or to go to the gym and train in kick boxing with a view toward defending oneself, if necessary, among other things.