Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
- Rum
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Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
From RDF at: http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Richa ... 8798180154
The last link contains a graphic graphic.
"'Children ages 5 to 14 in America are 13 times as likely to be murdered with guns as children in other industrialized countries.' READ links before comments. This from a column today that suggests DOING something to prevent future mayhem.
Contrastingly, Ross Douthat's religious column suggests nothing to prevent mayhem. Provide evidence that links 1 and 3 below are false -- or accurate. Douthat offers no specifics, so there's nothing much to contradict." Sean Faircloth, Dir. of Strategy & Policy. Read more in these three links:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opini ... .html?_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opini ... cents.html
http://www.artonissues.com/2012/01/sacr ... amendment/
The last link contains a graphic graphic.
"'Children ages 5 to 14 in America are 13 times as likely to be murdered with guns as children in other industrialized countries.' READ links before comments. This from a column today that suggests DOING something to prevent future mayhem.
Contrastingly, Ross Douthat's religious column suggests nothing to prevent mayhem. Provide evidence that links 1 and 3 below are false -- or accurate. Douthat offers no specifics, so there's nothing much to contradict." Sean Faircloth, Dir. of Strategy & Policy. Read more in these three links:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opini ... .html?_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opini ... cents.html
http://www.artonissues.com/2012/01/sacr ... amendment/
Re: Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
Some thoughts on the 2nd Amendment...
It begins by discussing the need for a "well-regulated militia". It was written at a time when the US had no standing Army and thus relied on its sparse population to form one in time of war, when there was no such thing as a Police Department, when there was an active frontier to the west, and when many people lived a life rural enough to mean that access to a rifle meant access to shooting your next meal.
Because of these factors (especially the last two), it's no surprise that the US developed a gun culture which has yet to diminish. The 2nd Amendment was crucial back when it was written. But unlike all those things listed above, there is one factor that hasn't gone away here in the 21st Century: crime. Because of that, I wouldn't advocate repealing the amendment entirely, just imposing tougher restrictions on what is available for the public, and who in the public can access them.
It begins by discussing the need for a "well-regulated militia". It was written at a time when the US had no standing Army and thus relied on its sparse population to form one in time of war, when there was no such thing as a Police Department, when there was an active frontier to the west, and when many people lived a life rural enough to mean that access to a rifle meant access to shooting your next meal.
Because of these factors (especially the last two), it's no surprise that the US developed a gun culture which has yet to diminish. The 2nd Amendment was crucial back when it was written. But unlike all those things listed above, there is one factor that hasn't gone away here in the 21st Century: crime. Because of that, I wouldn't advocate repealing the amendment entirely, just imposing tougher restrictions on what is available for the public, and who in the public can access them.
- Tero
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Re: Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
How do you know, Rum, that there were not 20 gun owners on the same day that saved their own child from rapists and killers, with a gun? If they did not kill the rapist, it would not make the news.
The Swiss make nice guns and rank #4.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_ ... by_country
The Swiss make nice guns and rank #4.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_ ... by_country
Last edited by Tero on Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
13 times a very low number is still quite low. I'd rather hope a site like RDF would provide raw data rather than statistical manipulations. Then allow thinking sorts to formulate their own objective opinions rather than being swayed by the dark arts of number. Perhaps that is a hundred years from today however? 

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Re: Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
Ian has it mostly. Finland has lots of guns per capita as well. The rural folk must have guns for wolves and the neighbor's dogs. You are not allowed to shoot people. In the UK, the police must be about 20 minutes from any citizen that calls them.
The Swiss make nice guns and rank #4.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_ ... by_country
The Swiss make nice guns and rank #4.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_ ... by_country
- JacksSmirkingRevenge
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Re: Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
If they can be arsed to turn up at all, that is.In the UK, the police must be about 20 minutes from any citizen that calls them.
Some time ago here, a guy called and reported theives breaking into his garden shed and was told that no police were available.
A short while later, he called them back and told them not to bother since he had shot them....The police turned up in a matter of minutes.
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Re: Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
Lovely how the garda protects the citizenry... I wish I could say the French ones are any better, but I can't.
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Re: Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
If it were true, the NRA would be trumpeting such statistics from the rooftops.Tero wrote:How do you know, Rum, that there were not 20 gun owners on the same day that saved their own child from rapists and killers, with a gun? If they did not kill the rapist, it would not make the news.
I think that language has a lot to do with interfering in our relationship to direct experience. A simple thing like metaphor will allows you to go to a place and say 'this is like that'. Well, this isn't like that. This is like this.
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Re: Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
Here we go again..
1)Yes I approve of stricter gun control, I also think the 2nd amendment is in dire need of serious reformation.
2)Stricter gun control and reformation of the right to bear arms would not have prevented this tragedy.
3)Stricter gun control and reformation of the right to bear arms will not prevent accidental discharges causing deaths (education may decrease them, but people will still be idiots - even smart responsible people are idiots sometimes)
4)Stricter gun control and reformation of the right to bear arms and self-defence laws will reduce gun related deaths.
1)Yes I approve of stricter gun control, I also think the 2nd amendment is in dire need of serious reformation.
2)Stricter gun control and reformation of the right to bear arms would not have prevented this tragedy.
3)Stricter gun control and reformation of the right to bear arms will not prevent accidental discharges causing deaths (education may decrease them, but people will still be idiots - even smart responsible people are idiots sometimes)
4)Stricter gun control and reformation of the right to bear arms and self-defence laws will reduce gun related deaths.
- Rum
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Re: Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
Urban myth. Urban myth.JacksSmirkingRevenge wrote:If they can be arsed to turn up at all, that is.In the UK, the police must be about 20 minutes from any citizen that calls them.
Some time ago here, a guy called and reported theives breaking into his garden shed and was told that no police were available.
A short while later, he called them back and told them not to bother since he had shot them....The police turned up in a matter of minutes.
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Re: Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
And it if were true ... a report of breaking and entering* is not nearly as important as a report that someone has just been killed**. I wouldn't have a problem with the apparent priorities of the police in this scenario.Rum wrote:Urban myth. Urban myth.JacksSmirkingRevenge wrote:If they can be arsed to turn up at all, that is.In the UK, the police must be about 20 minutes from any citizen that calls them.
Some time ago here, a guy called and reported theives breaking into his garden shed and was told that no police were available.
A short while later, he called them back and told them not to bother since he had shot them....The police turned up in a matter of minutes.
*Not into a house mind you, but a garden shed.
**Possibly in lawful circumstances, but even so, it would demand the immediate attention of the police. This isn't Florida we're talking about ...
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It's not up to us to choose which laws we want to obey. If it were, I'd kill everyone who looked at me cock-eyed! - Rex Banner
The Bluebird of Happiness long absent from his life, Ned is visited by the Chicken of Depression. - Gary Larson



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Re: Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
Agree 100%Făkünamę wrote:Here we go again..
1)Yes I approve of stricter gun control, I also think the 2nd amendment is in dire need of serious reformation.
2)Stricter gun control and reformation of the right to bear arms would not have prevented this tragedy.
3)Stricter gun control and reformation of the right to bear arms will not prevent accidental discharges causing deaths (education may decrease them, but people will still be idiots - even smart responsible people are idiots sometimes)
4)Stricter gun control and reformation of the right to bear arms and self-defence laws will reduce gun related deaths.


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Re: Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
The second amendment is not needed. No other western nation has anything like the second amendment, and they all permit limited ownership of firearms. Anyone who wants a sporting rifle and meets the criteria can get one.
The second amendment does not permit proper gun ownership. What it does is permit improper gun ownership, by people who should never, never be permitted one.
The second amendment does not permit proper gun ownership. What it does is permit improper gun ownership, by people who should never, never be permitted one.
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Re: Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
So long as scum like the WBC can operate, the 2nd A. will be sorely needed.
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Re: Sacrificing children for the Second amendment
Right on. The way the Second Amendment is worded, that the right to bear arms "shall not be infringed upon" technically makes it very difficult to pass stricter controls that the Supreme Court can declare to be constitutional. We need to amend that clause so that we can require education, training and safe storage as prerequisites to firearm ownership. Not just handguns, either.Woodbutcher wrote:Agree 100%Făkünamę wrote:Here we go again..
1)Yes I approve of stricter gun control, I also think the 2nd amendment is in dire need of serious reformation.
2)Stricter gun control and reformation of the right to bear arms would not have prevented this tragedy.
3)Stricter gun control and reformation of the right to bear arms will not prevent accidental discharges causing deaths (education may decrease them, but people will still be idiots - even smart responsible people are idiots sometimes)
4)Stricter gun control and reformation of the right to bear arms and self-defence laws will reduce gun related deaths.![]()
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