27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

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Re: 27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

Post by Jason » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:34 pm

orpheus wrote:
Făkünamę wrote:That's what I've been saying this entire time - get at the root of the problem. However, the anti-gun nuts cannot see past their irrational bias and continue to trumpet the war song 'guns ARE the problem'.
Really?
orpheus wrote:I never said guns are "the" problem. There may not be a single "the" problem. Guns, however, are a major factor in the tragic results because they're so easy and efficient.
orpheus wrote:No we don't, and stop distorting my words. Guns are not the cause. They are an immense part of the problem.
orpheus wrote:Yes, I understand causality, and I never said guns were the cause.
orpheus wrote:I'm not blaming the tool. I'm saying guns are by far the more efficient tool, and that's why they're so dangerous.
orpheus wrote:Because guns aren't "the" problem, some people refuse to see that guns play any part at all. But the situation isn't black and white. Are guns THE problem? Arguably not. Are they a major factor in the degree of carnage in these situations? Absolutely.
You're not the only anti-gun nut here, and it took some doing to get you to back down to part of the problem rather than the problem. Go back and quote mine some of that.

Oh, and a well considered 'fuck you' as well.
Last edited by Jason on Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

Post by Jason » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:35 pm

Jesus_of_Nazareth wrote:The BBC is still not 100% sure that this US massacre is the worst ever - and the news folks absolutely love stuff being the worst! so my bet is that for not want of research........

....I guess just so many to choose from.

I wonder how many next year?
A quick wikipedia search will show that it is not. In 1927 another psychopath blew up an elementary school killing even more.

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Re: 27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

Post by Ian » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:37 pm

Gallstones wrote:
Ian wrote:
Gallstones wrote: Another illustration about how it isn't the violence of guns that anti-gun nuts object to.
Hypocrites.
Y'know what's really distasteful? How all the pro-gun people (and by pro-gun I mean anyone who thinks US gun control laws are restrictive enough as it is) are griping about how all the anti-gun people are coldly using tragedies like this to advance their own set of beliefs. That is short-sighted to the point of inhumanity. The reason many of us who are in favor of stricter gun control speak about it so much at times like this is because times like this happen so much. Incidents like this are not used to exploit our ideology; they are a major source of our ideology. Get it?
None of your screed is about my point.
Nothing other than that for me to "get".

How many pro gun people have said they want to see anti gun people killed as a solution to THE PROBLEM, or that non gun owners deserved to be killed?
Fine, I wasn't quite aiming that at you personally. But many many many of you pro-gun types (yup, I'm throwing a net wide enough to include you, sorry) have been saying exactly that - we anti-gun people are just exploiting this tragedy, and shame on us. Nope, it's tragedies like this which make people become anti-gun in the first place.

Times like this are when pro-gun types shouldn't argue back. Now is the time when you folks should just sit down, shut the holes in your faces, and hope that this latest wave of anti-gun mania doesn't actually turn into real legislation. Something that might, I dunno, help make it so that 40% of the guns sold in the US currently not requiring a background check actually require one. Heaven forbid.

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Re: 27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

Post by orpheus » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:40 pm

Făkünamę wrote:
orpheus wrote:
Făkünamę wrote:That's what I've been saying this entire time - get at the root of the problem. However, the anti-gun nuts cannot see past their irrational bias and continue to trumpet the war song 'guns ARE the problem'.
Really?
orpheus wrote:I never said guns are "the" problem. There may not be a single "the" problem. Guns, however, are a major factor in the tragic results because they're so easy and efficient.
orpheus wrote:No we don't, and stop distorting my words. Guns are not the cause. They are an immense part of the problem.
orpheus wrote:Yes, I understand causality, and I never said guns were the cause.
orpheus wrote:I'm not blaming the tool. I'm saying guns are by far the more efficient tool, and that's why they're so dangerous.
orpheus wrote:Because guns aren't "the" problem, some people refuse to see that guns play any part at all. But the situation isn't black and white. Are guns THE problem? Arguably not. Are they a major factor in the degree of carnage in these situations? Absolutely.
You're not the only anti-gun nut here, and it took some doing to get you to back down to part of the problem rather than the problem. Go back and quote mine some of that.

Oh, and a well considered 'fuck you' as well.
:hehe:

You're really reaching now. Or perhaps not. Perhaps you just didn't understand me at first. But go on - show me where I said guns were the problem. Or admit that you're mistaken, or that you lied.
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Re: 27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

Post by Gallstones » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:59 pm

Ian wrote:
Gallstones wrote:
Ian wrote:
Gallstones wrote: Another illustration about how it isn't the violence of guns that anti-gun nuts object to.
Hypocrites.
Y'know what's really distasteful? How all the pro-gun people (and by pro-gun I mean anyone who thinks US gun control laws are restrictive enough as it is) are griping about how all the anti-gun people are coldly using tragedies like this to advance their own set of beliefs. That is short-sighted to the point of inhumanity. The reason many of us who are in favor of stricter gun control speak about it so much at times like this is because times like this happen so much. Incidents like this are not used to exploit our ideology; they are a major source of our ideology. Get it?
None of your screed is about my point.
Nothing other than that for me to "get".

How many pro gun people have said they want to see anti gun people killed as a solution to THE PROBLEM, or that non gun owners deserved to be killed?
Fine, I wasn't quite aiming that at you personally. But many many many of you pro-gun types (yup, I'm throwing a net wide enough to include you, sorry) have been saying exactly that - we anti-gun people are just exploiting this tragedy, and shame on us. Nope, it's tragedies like this which make people become anti-gun in the first place.
I have said no such thing ever.
Tragedies start with nuts and end with making more--how is that a rational way to deal with tragedies?
Ian wrote:Times like this are when pro-gun types shouldn't argue back. Now is the time when you folks should just sit down, shut the holes in your faces, and hope that this latest wave of anti-gun mania doesn't actually turn into real legislation. Something that might, I dunno, help make it so that 40% of the guns sold in the US currently not requiring a background check actually require one. Heaven forbid.
Of course we "pro gun" types should do the decent thing and be silent when the anti gun types tell us we should be killed, we deserve to be shot, we lack empathy, we are exploiting a tragedy. Can't think of anything more reasonable than that.
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Re: 27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

Post by Ian » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:04 pm

"The anti gun types" said that, huh? I said no such thing.

How's this for lacking empathy: anybody who is a member of the NRA is partly responsible for this. Tragedies like this start with nuts, yes... and the nuts somehow have little or no trouble gaining access to weapons which can kill dozens of people within minutes. One might want to consider how that is so.

Doesn't sound fair? I don't care. My ideology didn't kill anybody yestedray.

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Re: 27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

Post by Jason » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:07 pm

Ian wrote:
Gallstones wrote:
Ian wrote:
Gallstones wrote: Another illustration about how it isn't the violence of guns that anti-gun nuts object to.
Hypocrites.
Y'know what's really distasteful? How all the pro-gun people (and by pro-gun I mean anyone who thinks US gun control laws are restrictive enough as it is) are griping about how all the anti-gun people are coldly using tragedies like this to advance their own set of beliefs. That is short-sighted to the point of inhumanity. The reason many of us who are in favor of stricter gun control speak about it so much at times like this is because times like this happen so much. Incidents like this are not used to exploit our ideology; they are a major source of our ideology. Get it?
None of your screed is about my point.
Nothing other than that for me to "get".

How many pro gun people have said they want to see anti gun people killed as a solution to THE PROBLEM, or that non gun owners deserved to be killed?
Fine, I wasn't quite aiming that at you personally. But many many many of you pro-gun types (yup, I'm throwing a net wide enough to include you, sorry) have been saying exactly that - we anti-gun people are just exploiting this tragedy, and shame on us. Nope, it's tragedies like this which make people become anti-gun in the first place.

Times like this are when pro-gun types shouldn't argue back. Now is the time when you folks should just sit down, shut the holes in your faces, and hope that this latest wave of anti-gun mania doesn't actually turn into real legislation. Something that might, I dunno, help make it so that 40% of the guns sold in the US currently not requiring a background check actually require one. Heaven forbid.
You know Ian, I agree with your ideas on reform, but I have to say you're missing the point regarding the exploitation of this tragedy by the anti-gun nutters. The point, at least that I'm making, is that guns are not THE problem. Reform is a great idea, but the current gun control laws are not what caused this tragedy. So when I say that it's being exploited (I don't think I have said it quite that harshly), I mean it is being used to push a political agenda and not as a catalyst for change in the systems in place to deal with psychopaths who commit these atrocities. If a tragedy like this makes you anti-gun, you're not thinking logically. Happily, you're surrounded by a large group of like-minded people who'll support this method of non-thinking.

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Re: 27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

Post by Seth » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:08 pm

Ian wrote:
Gallstones wrote: Another illustration about how it isn't the violence of guns that anti-gun nuts object to.
Hypocrites.
Y'know what's really distasteful? How all the pro-gun people (and by pro-gun I mean anyone who thinks US gun control laws are restrictive enough as it is) are griping about how all the anti-gun people are coldly using tragedies like this to advance their own set of beliefs. That is short-sighted to the point of inhumanity. The reason many of us who are in favor of stricter gun control speak about it so much at times like this is because times like this happen so much. Incidents like this are not used to exploit our ideology; they are a major source of our ideology. Get it?
Actually, they are relatively rare. More kids are killed yearly in auto accidents and at least 10 other causes than are killed in mass shootings.

It's only remarkable because it was perpetrated by a person and they all died at once.

And yes, the anti-gun people are coldly and calculatedly using this tragedy to forward their anti-gun agenda. They do it ever single time.

What the dumb fuckers don't do is demand that the federal government spend some of that "Race to the Trough" money funding security improvements in schools.

Some examples:

Sally-ports/foyers made of bulletproof materials that automatically lock the person in once the enter the first set of doors combined with a system that requires a school representative to get up off their fat, lazy asses and actually go to the door, identify the individual, make sure he/she isn't armed, and manually unlock the door to let them in.

It appears at this point (and there's little evidence in yet) that the killer was let in by staff because they recognized him using the video camera in the foyer, but they did NOT take the time to actually look him over, see that he was wearing combat dress and a vest, and NOT let him in. Also, so far I've heard that the semi-automatic rifle he had he left IN HIS CAR, probably because he was afraid he couldn't conceal it and would not be able to get in the door, so it appears he used concealed handguns instead.

Schools should be designed with bullet-proof partitions that can be closed with the push of a button from the office or any classroom that will partition off the school into small "pods", each of which must have an external escape route. With such partitions, a killer can be contained to a small part of the school and will be unable to roam at will. This will limit his ability to get to students.

Hallways and classroom doors should be required to be built of bullet-resistant materials, armored to a Level IIIA or Level IV NIJ rating, and all classroom doors should have double top and bottom locking deadbolts and EXTERNAL ESCAPE pathways. Think of a shopping mall where customers (students and teachers) circulate in the front, but behind the stores there is a hallway that is closed off and not used except for deliveries and fire escape. Schools should be built the same way, so that a teacher can lock the bulletproof door (or all of them can be electrically locked from the office at once) which at the same time pops open a concealed escape route separate from the internal hallways.

Next, a select cadre of teachers should be tactically trained and should carry concealed handguns while on duty. In addition, there should be gun lockers in each "pod" that contain several sets of body armor and a couple of shotguns that only teachers and staff can access (perhaps fingerpring or iris biometric locks) so that teachers can arm themselves in such situations.

But the most important thing is that school staff and teachers have to give up the fantasy land fiction that "it can't happen here" and get over their predominantly liberal, hoplophobe attitudes about firearms and security and do what is necessary to protect the children, even if they don't like the idea of thinking about it and having to react to such situations.

Yes, it's expensive, but what is a child's life worth. All those billions of dollars given away by Obama in the Race to the Trough would have been better spent securing every school in the US to a much greater degree than they are now.

And, lest it pass unnoticed, once again, for the umpteenth time, the only person in the room with a gun was the bad guy. If that teacher had been armed, it might have been a different story. The killing was over before the police even arrived, which once again proves conclusively that when someone starts shooting things up, you simply don't have time to wait for the police, you have to be prepared (and armed) to do something RIGHT FUCKING NOW or you're going to die.

And once again I'm saddened by the fact that I wasn't in the building with my legally-carried handgun at the time, because things would have gone differently. Oh, wait, even in Colorado, where concealed carry is lawful, one of the few places that I CANNOT lawfully carry my handgun is a K-12 school. Imagine that...a "gun free zone" is, once again and very predictably, the location of a mass killing by an insane gunman.

You anti-gun nuts are unbelievably stupid you know. You think you can just get rid of all the guns, but that cannot and will not happen, and you're too stupid or too ideologically blind to acknowledge that what's needed is MORE GUNS in schools...in the hands of trustworthy, qualified staff and faculty, who are the ONLY PEOPLE in a position to respond in time to prevent such events.

Doesn't matter whether you like or hate guns, this is simply a fact of life you need to integrate and learn to live with. Regardless of gun policy in general, we need ARMED INDIVIDUALS in our schools who can intervene to save lives in these type of situations. Period. End of story.
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Re: 27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

Post by Jason » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:11 pm

Seth arrives on the scene.. /thread

Just as well. It's sickening anyway.

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Re: 27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

Post by Ian » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:12 pm

Făkünamę wrote:You know Ian, I agree with your ideas on reform, but I have to say you're missing the point regarding the exploitation of this tragedy by the anti-gun nutters. The point, at least that I'm making, is that guns are not THE problem. Reform is a great idea, but the current gun control laws are not what caused this tragedy. So when I say that it's being exploited (I don't think I have said it quite that harshly), I mean it is being used to push a political agenda and not as a catalyst for change in the systems in place to deal with psychopaths who commit these atrocities. If a tragedy like this makes you anti-gun, you're not thinking logically. Happily, you're surrounded by a large group of like-minded people who'll support this method of non-thinking.
I don't think guns themselves are THE problem either. How could I when I own a gun? A semi-automatic handgun no less. But I registered it, passed a background check to get it, and I keep it safely locked away. I'm not in favor of abolishing the 2nd Amendment, but some (much) stricter gun control laws wouldn't be such a bad idea. So have some idea of what you're talking about before you accuse me of non-thinking. Is it possible to look at yesterday and become more in favor of lax gun restrictions? Maybe for some people, but I don't think they're the ones thinking very clearly.

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Re: 27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

Post by Gallstones » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:13 pm

Ian wrote:"The anti gun types" said that, huh? I said no such thing.

How's this for lacking empathy: anybody who is a member of the NRA is partly responsible for this. Tragedies like this start with nuts, yes... and the nuts somehow have little or no trouble gaining access to weapons which can kill dozens of people within minutes. One might want to consider how that is so.

Doesn't sound fair? I don't care. My ideology didn't kill anybody yestedray.
I didn't say YOU did.
You quoted and lambasted me.

Read back a couple pages--mistermack for example.

My ideology didn't kill anyone ever.
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Re: 27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

Post by Seth » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:14 pm

Ian wrote:"The anti gun types" said that, huh? I said no such thing.

How's this for lacking empathy: anybody who is a member of the NRA is partly responsible for this. Tragedies like this start with nuts, yes... and the nuts somehow have little or no trouble gaining access to weapons which can kill dozens of people within minutes. One might want to consider how that is so.

Doesn't sound fair? I don't care. My ideology didn't kill anybody yestedray.
Yes, it did. Your ideology is the one that keeps people like me from volunteering to guard the school my fiancee's kids go to, like parents and others do in Israel.

In fact, your ideology is FAR MORE RESPONSIBLE for what happened than the ideology of ANY law-abiding gun owner, most of whom I suspect would have been glad to take on this killer had they been armed and in the school at the time.

It's precisely your ideology that PREVENTS good, law abiding citizens from carrying their guns into elementary schools, and it's the rat-fuckers in the teacher's unions and liberal pussies who think that it's more important to play ideological games with our children's lives by trying to deny that these sorts of things happen and that the "solution" is gun control, which is horseshit. The solution is to have armed citizens, teachers, administrators, janitors, and police officers IN THE SCHOOLS every second that kids are there and in sufficient quantity to ensure that they outnumber and out-gun a potential killer.

Like it or not, that's the ONLY rational solution, and you're the enemy of solving this problem, not a supporter.
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27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

Post by mozg » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:14 pm

Gerald McGrew wrote:And did I just see someone post actual data and analyses showing the correlation between more guns and more gun deaths, and tighter restrictions and fewer gun deaths....and that post generally be ignored?

Funny thing to see in a group that has "rational" in its fucking title.
Crime rates in general and homicide rates have been declining for the past 30 years or so, and in the US the number of firearms in the hands of the citizens keeps rising.

Over the same period of time, more states are relaxing the restrictions on concealed carry, which you can see easily enough on Wikipedia in a convenient map.

These are also facts, and they do not support the presumption that making more gun laws does anything to reduce crime.
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Re: 27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

Post by Gallstones » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:16 pm

Făkünamę wrote:
Ian wrote:
Gallstones wrote:
Ian wrote:
Gallstones wrote: Another illustration about how it isn't the violence of guns that anti-gun nuts object to.
Hypocrites.
Y'know what's really distasteful? How all the pro-gun people (and by pro-gun I mean anyone who thinks US gun control laws are restrictive enough as it is) are griping about how all the anti-gun people are coldly using tragedies like this to advance their own set of beliefs. That is short-sighted to the point of inhumanity. The reason many of us who are in favor of stricter gun control speak about it so much at times like this is because times like this happen so much. Incidents like this are not used to exploit our ideology; they are a major source of our ideology. Get it?
None of your screed is about my point.
Nothing other than that for me to "get".

How many pro gun people have said they want to see anti gun people killed as a solution to THE PROBLEM, or that non gun owners deserved to be killed?
Fine, I wasn't quite aiming that at you personally. But many many many of you pro-gun types (yup, I'm throwing a net wide enough to include you, sorry) have been saying exactly that - we anti-gun people are just exploiting this tragedy, and shame on us. Nope, it's tragedies like this which make people become anti-gun in the first place.

Times like this are when pro-gun types shouldn't argue back. Now is the time when you folks should just sit down, shut the holes in your faces, and hope that this latest wave of anti-gun mania doesn't actually turn into real legislation. Something that might, I dunno, help make it so that 40% of the guns sold in the US currently not requiring a background check actually require one. Heaven forbid.
You know Ian, I agree with your ideas on reform, but I have to say you're missing the point regarding the exploitation of this tragedy by the anti-gun nutters. The point, at least that I'm making, is that guns are not THE problem. Reform is a great idea, but the current gun control laws are not what caused this tragedy. So when I say that it's being exploited (I don't think I have said it quite that harshly), I mean it is being used to push a political agenda and not as a catalyst for change in the systems in place to deal with psychopaths who commit these atrocities. If a tragedy like this makes you anti-gun, you're not thinking logically. Happily, you're surrounded by a large group of like-minded people who'll support this method of non-thinking.
Yes. :tup:
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Re: 27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

Post by Jason » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:16 pm

I directed none of what I wrote at you, I was writing in a general sense. What happened yesterday made no change to where I sit on the gun issue. Is it possible to look at yesterday and become more in favour of stricter gun restrictions? Sure. Is it a logical reason to do so? I don't think so.

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