The UK - better together!

[Jason]

Meh. I also detest gin. I'll stick with Vodka, Canadian whiskey, and tequila (on occasion).

[Svartalf]

I never will understand what vodka is good for, beside spiking a drink without flavouring it.

[ronmcd]

More significant evidence that Barroso was mistaken ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-20757450

Scottish independence: Sir David Edward says Jose Manuel Barroso 'wrong' on EU

A senior legal expert has challenged the opinion of the European Commission president over the status of an independent Scotland in the EU.

Jose Manuel Barroso said last week any new state would be outside EU treaties and would have to reapply to join.

But Professor Sir David Edward, a former European Court judge, believes that Scotland and the rest of the UK would be in a comparable position.

There would be no need for a new accession treaty, he argued.

Instead, negotiations prior to independence would result in amended EU treaties.

Writing on the Scottish Constitutional Futures website, Sir David examined both the view of those such as Mr Barroso, who has said a newly independent state would have to apply to join the EU, and that of nationalists who have argued that Scotland would simply continue as a member of the EU after independence.

He said it was his opinion that "neither contention is correct", but as the situation would be unprecedented, and there is no express provision in the treaties to deal with it, it was necessary to look to the spirit and general scheme of the EU treaties.

'Good faith'

He added: "I express no opinion as to whether either Scotland or the Rest of the UK (RoUK) or both would be "successor States" in conventional international law. That question might be relevant in relation to other treaty relationships but not to the EU.

"On those assumptions, my opinion is that, in accordance with their obligations of good faith, sincere cooperation and solidarity, the EU institutions and all the Member States (including the UK as existing), would be obliged to enter into negotiations, before separation took effect, to determine the future relationship within the EU of the separate parts of the former UK and the other Member States.

"The outcome of such negotiations, unless they failed utterly, would be agreed amendment of the existing Treaties, not a new Accession Treaty."

...

Sir David was the British Judge of the European Court of First Instance from 1989 to 1992, and of the European Court of Justice from 1992 to 2004. He is a Professor Emeritus of the University of Edinburgh, where he was Salvesen Professor of European Institutions and Director of the Europa Institute from 1985 to 1989.

... more

[Jesus_of_Nazareth]

I thought this thread would have lengthed a bit (or has the subject migrated elsewhere?)

Nice to see that Cameron has decide to give the SNP a helping hand on Independence by threatening to take (or sleepwalk?!) Britain out of the EU via a Referendum after the next General Election in 2015 (either fully out or only partially).

Therefore the choice for the Scots is now also whether they want to remain in the EU (a vast majority do - and fundamentally the Scots have always been more pro European than the English) or at least have the decision made by themselves rather than by London. Indeed, if rump UK does leave the EU could be a great economic advantage for Scotland having a shared land border with England.

Obviously Cameron is simply trying to cut off UKIP at the next General Election and is probably never intending to leave the EU - but shit happens....

[ronmcd]

I thought this thread would have lengthed a bit (or has the subject migrated elsewhere?)

Nice to see that Cameron has decide to give the SNP a helping hand on Independence by threatening to take (or sleepwalk?!) Britain out of the EU via a Referendum after the next General Election in 2015 (either fully out or only partially).

Therefore the choice for the Scots is now also whether they want to remain in the EU (a vast majority do - and fundamentally the Scots have always been more pro European than the English) or at least have the decision made by themselves rather than by London. Indeed, if rump UK does leave the EU could be a great economic advantage for Scotland having a shared land border with England.

Obviously Cameron is simply trying to cut off UKIP at the next General Election and is probably never intending to leave the EU - but shit happens....

Aye. It's frankly hilarious that the Scottish government are attacked by Tories (amongst others) who claim Scotland would be inexplicably expelled from the EU and suffer massively because of it ... while many of those self same Tories (and others) actively campaign for UK to leave EU, presumably gaining from it. Or something.

Amusing!

[mistermack]

I thought this thread would have lengthed a bit (or has the subject migrated elsewhere?)

Nice to see that Cameron has decide to give the SNP a helping hand on Independence by threatening to take (or sleepwalk?!) Britain out of the EU via a Referendum after the next General Election in 2015 (either fully out or only partially).

Therefore the choice for the Scots is now also whether they want to remain in the EU (a vast majority do - and fundamentally the Scots have always been more pro European than the English) or at least have the decision made by themselves rather than by London. Indeed, if rump UK does leave the EU could be a great economic advantage for Scotland having a shared land border with England.

Obviously Cameron is simply trying to cut off UKIP at the next General Election and is probably never intending to leave the EU - but shit happens....

I agree that Cameron is going for the UKIP vote. And he's playing a very silly and dangerous game. Unless he intends to con the voters with an OFFER of a referendum, that won't materialise, because he can't get a deal.

If the UK was out and Scotland was in the EU, I don't think it would end happily. What with Scots needing a work permit and a visa to take jobs down here. And the Irish too.

[Red Celt]

What with Scots needing a work permit and a visa to take jobs down here. And the Irish too.

Citation needed.

[MrJonno]

Scots please don't leave England, I really don't like the Tories and if you go we will end up as redneck backwater

You can have the Falkland Islands if you stay?

[ronmcd]

I'm pretty sure Cameron has no intention of leaving, or having an in/out referendum. It's the usual Tory infighting over Europe that undermines every Tory leader, eventually, and he's trying to appear Eurosceptic but really isn't.

[MrJonno]

Cameron is an arse but he isnt stupid few British politicans are (well compared to the people who elect them)

[Jesus_of_Nazareth]

You can have the Falkland Islands if you stay?

Or NI if you leave

In regard to border controls for people - I would be very surprised if folks living in Scotland (or Scots born and living in England) would be stripped of their UK passports and the right to reside (did not happen to the Irish - and that a less amicable divorce!). In fact I would say it was unimaginable, if only because impossible to do, expensive and would affect more than few London based "Great and good" - leaving aside that it would give no advantage to the English.


For the unborn Scots? Well, the English will have to treat them as EU citizens at the least - good luck with putting up too many barriers with the big boys next door! (Visas to visit or do business in the EU?! - can imagine how that would not suit those with Houses in the South of France!. Likely would be the same position as the Irish were pre EU - England won't care, with the EU reciprocating.

[klr]

You can have the Falkland Islands if you stay?

Or NI if you leave

In regard to border controls for people - I would be very surprised if folks living in Scotland (or Scots born and living in England) would be stripped of their UK passports and the right to reside (did not happen to the Irish - and that a less amicable divorce!). In fact I would say it was unimaginable, if only because impossible to do, expensive and would affect more than few London based "Great and good" - leaving aside that it would give no advantage to the English.


For the unborn Scots? Well, the English will have to treat them as EU citizens at the least - good luck with putting up too many barriers with the big boys next door! (Visas to visit or do business in the EU?! - can imagine how that would not suit those with Houses in the South of France!. Likely would be the same position as the Irish were pre EU - England won't care, with the EU reciprocating.

Ireland and the UK joined the EU at the same time, so this was never a practical issue IIRC.

[Cormac]

ahem.

You've also been that tyrant together...

[Cormac]

We've also been those tyrants, destroyed systems of democracy to suit business interests, sold off that revolutionised industry and came out of the enlightenment thicker and more indolent.

Wake up Ben you daft cunt, if there are reasons to stay in the union, make them about now, at this point the whole thing is just some foggy memories of a glorious past.

John of Glasgow.

What Audley said...

[klr]

ahem.

You've also been that tyrant together...

Yup. Scots (and to a lesser extent Irish) helped expand and run the Empire, for good and ill.