Make big companies pay tax? A joke.

[Svartalf]

It's a tool that comes at a literally price, possibly a terrible one.

[Jason]

Debt is a fantastic tool, but is not a magic tool. The thing about debt is that it ultimately has to be paid off. Household debt, apart from mortgages are, in general, to be avoided.

A tool for what? Some would say economic slavery. What about you?

[Seth]

Debt is a fantastic tool, but is not a magic tool. The thing about debt is that it ultimately has to be paid off. Household debt, apart from mortgages are, in general, to be avoided.

A tool for what? Some would say economic slavery. What about you?

Debt is not a tool of slavery because slavery is involuntary servitude. Debt is voluntary servitude. It's saying "I promise to work into the future to pay you back what you loan to me so I can acquire what I want today instead of working for myself and saving up the money to buy what I want."

Debt is nothing more than a form of greed. You want to watch the Super Bowl on a new 60-inch flatscreen today, but you don't want to pay for it up front, you want to pay for it later, so you make a bargain with the devil and you willingly sell yourself into servitude to repay that obligation.

And there's absolutely nothing morally wrong in choosing to do so, and you have no room to complain about the terms of the loan because you accepted them of your own free will.

[Jason]

Indentured servitude.. I can see how that sells better than slavery.

[Cormac]

Debt is a fantastic tool, but is not a magic tool. The thing about debt is that it ultimately has to be paid off. Household debt, apart from mortgages are, in general, to be avoided.

A tool for what? Some would say economic slavery. What about you?

For getting projects off the ground now, while they are relevant, instead of not, because the total amount of cash isn't available.

The problem is that it is, certainly as far as households stand, almost wholly inappropriately sold. We have created a culture of the holiday loan, the "get it now, don't bother saving" culture. We even see rapacious lenders on the high street again with their 4000% interest rates. These guys are despicable and should made macro crawl back into the sewer from which they came.

But debt can be very good - for example, for financing something now that can produce greater benefit that the cost of the debt over the medium to long term.

[JimC]

Debt is a fantastic tool, but is not a magic tool. The thing about debt is that it ultimately has to be paid off. Household debt, apart from mortgages are, in general, to be avoided.

A tool for what? Some would say economic slavery. What about you?

For getting projects off the ground now, while they are relevant, instead of not, because the total amount of cash isn't available.

The problem is that it is, certainly as far as households stand, almost wholly inappropriately sold. We have created a culture of the holiday loan, the "get it now, don't bother saving" culture. We even see rapacious lenders on the high street again with their 4000% interest rates. These guys are despicable and should made macro crawl back into the sewer from which they came.

But debt can be very good - for example, for financing something now that can produce greater benefit that the cost of the debt over the medium to long term.

In effect, it's a way of gaining start-up investment via the third party of a bank or similar institution, instead of directly getting investors to come on board your new enterprise. Of course, the third party takes their cut. In some situations, this will not matter, if the new enterprise is successful...

[Jason]

Really? I had no idea.

I was referring to the culture of debt most of modern society lives in quite obviously.

[JimC]

Really? I had no idea.

I was referring to the culture of debt most of modern society lives in quite obviously.

And it's a culture that personally I try to minimise as much as possible. Otherwise, one is letting financial institutions parasitise your life...

[Seth]

Indentured servitude.. I can see how that sells better than slavery.

Voluntary servitude (working to pay your debts) is different from indentured servitude. In indentured servitude, one signs a contract (generally for transportation costs to America) to work for someone for a specified period of time to pay off the costs of transportation across the ocean. The indenture is a legally binding contract to work for a specific individual for a specific amount of time doing specific work. The obligation of the employer is to provide food, clothing, housing and other necessities during the indenture. The indentured servant isn't paid a wage, but is supported while working.

When I say "voluntary servitude" what I mean is that when one voluntarily contracts a debt, one is legally obliged to fulfill those obligations, be they labor or money. The holder of the debt is entitled to take whatever action is specified in the contract if you default on the debt. We no longer have debtor's prisons in the US, and anyone can declare bankruptcy, so there is no "involuntariness" involved.

[Cormac]

In fact, US bankruptcy laws are very liberal, which is a good thing in my view.

(In Ireland, until recently, bankruptcy was a 12 year process. It has recently been reduced (although I am not clear whether or not the legislation has been passed yet. In any case, it is bad for banks to think that they don't share risk. As Nassim Nicholas Taleb says (paraphrasing) - They've got to.have skin in the game).

[Jason]

Car loans and Mortgages are not erased by bankruptcy in Canada. Dunno about in the US of A.

[Kristie]

Car loans and Mortgages are not erased by bankruptcy in Canada. Dunno about in the US of A.

It's optional.

[Guy_Montag]

Was there not an issue in the UK of students declaring bankruptcy to clear their student loans quickly & efficiently. I believe they are now exempt, although what happens if you get a loan to pay off the student loans then declare bankruptcy, I don't know. Personally I'd just fuck off to a different country & let them whistle for it - £9k a year FFS.