Agree or disagree?

MrJonno
Posts: 3442
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:24 am
Contact:

Re: Agree or disagree?

Post by MrJonno » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:15 pm

Cormac wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
MrJonno wrote:No bills are pleasant but that doesnt make them evil
That's like saying it's evil to pay to see a movie. If I didn't pay my small bit, and everybody else paid their small bit, billion-dollar movies wouldn't be made.

That Isn't a fair comparison though Zilla. Seeing a movie is entirely voluntary. Taxes, though necessary, are not.
Taxes are purely voluntary no one forces you to be a member of a club (country) unless you of course you think you have some mysterious natural rights to work and live in a country for free
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

User avatar
MiM
Man In The Middle
Posts: 5459
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: Agree or disagree?

Post by MiM » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:21 pm

I don't know about Beatles, but there is a reliably documented case, where the Swedish author of children's books Astrid Lindgren had to pay 102% taxes on the margins, due to highly progressive tax scales, in the 1970's, and some flukes in how the taxes where calculated during one specific year.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool - Richard Feynman

User avatar
Drewish
I'm with stupid /\
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Agree or disagree?

Post by Drewish » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:24 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Drew, do you really think the Beatles paid 95% of their income in taxes?
Look into the tax rates of the UK during the 1970s. Tax rates at 90%+ are not hyperbole.

http://www.ifs.org.uk/bns/bn25.pdf
Last edited by Drewish on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nobody expects me...

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: Agree or disagree?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:24 pm

MiM wrote:I don't know about Beatles, but there is a reliably documented case, where the Swedish author of children's books Astrid Lindgren had to pay 102% taxes on the margins, due to highly progressive tax scales, in the 1970's, and some flukes in how the taxes where calculated during one specific year.
But on how much of his actual income did he pay that tax?
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: Agree or disagree?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:24 pm

Drewish wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Drew, do you really think the Beatles paid 95% of their income in taxes?
Look into the tax rates of the UK during the 1970s. Tax rates at 90%+ are not hyperbole.
That's not what I asked.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
Drewish
I'm with stupid /\
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Agree or disagree?

Post by Drewish » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:32 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Drewish wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Drew, do you really think the Beatles paid 95% of their income in taxes?
Look into the tax rates of the UK during the 1970s. Tax rates at 90%+ are not hyperbole.
That's not what I asked.
The tax rates were that high. The Beatles made enough to pay that rate. They claimed that taxation levels were that high for them and that's what inspired them to write that song. So yes. Though perhaps they managed to avoid it on income they made from foreign markets.
Nobody expects me...

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: Agree or disagree?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:37 pm

Drewish wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Drewish wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Drew, do you really think the Beatles paid 95% of their income in taxes?
Look into the tax rates of the UK during the 1970s. Tax rates at 90%+ are not hyperbole.
That's not what I asked.
The tax rates were that high. The Beatles made enough to pay that rate. They claimed that taxation levels were that high for them and that's what inspired them to write that song. So yes. Though perhaps they managed to avoid it on income they made from foreign markets.
And tax shelters, etc., with the end result that they kept most of their money. It's a spiral. Tax rates set, rich folks find loopholes, etc., taxes raises to reflect the fact that they're not paying their share, they find more loopholes, buying politicians to create them, and the tax rates go up again. Ad infinitum.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
Drewish
I'm with stupid /\
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Agree or disagree?

Post by Drewish » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:37 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Drewish wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Drewish wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Drew, do you really think the Beatles paid 95% of their income in taxes?
Look into the tax rates of the UK during the 1970s. Tax rates at 90%+ are not hyperbole.
That's not what I asked.
The tax rates were that high. The Beatles made enough to pay that rate. They claimed that taxation levels were that high for them and that's what inspired them to write that song. So yes. Though perhaps they managed to avoid it on income they made from foreign markets.
And tax shelters, etc., with the end result that they kept most of their money. It's a spiral. Tax rates set, rich folks find loopholes, etc., taxes raises to reflect the fact that they're not paying their share, they find more loopholes, buying politicians to create them, and the tax rates go up again. Ad infinitum.
Source?
Nobody expects me...

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: Agree or disagree?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:39 pm

Class at Purdue. The prof supplied the publicly available information and pointed out the neat tricks.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
Drewish
I'm with stupid /\
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Agree or disagree?

Post by Drewish » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:16 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Class at Purdue. The prof supplied the publicly available information and pointed out the neat tricks.
No, I mean that the Beatles themselves used tax shelters allowing them to avoid paying a 95% tax rate.
Nobody expects me...

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: Agree or disagree?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:23 pm

Drewish wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Class at Purdue. The prof supplied the publicly available information and pointed out the neat tricks.
No, I mean that the Beatles themselves used tax shelters allowing them to avoid paying a 95% tax rate.
That was part of the information the prof showed us. I don't have my notes from that class, sorry.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

PsychoSerenity
"I" Self-Perceive Recursively
Posts: 7824
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:57 am
Contact:

Re: Agree or disagree?

Post by PsychoSerenity » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:59 pm

I don't know what the rates and thresholds were in 1970s, but generally tax rates only apply to earnings over the given tax threshold, meaning if someone is in the top tax bracket they've already earned a shed-load that has only been taxed at each of the lower rates, and the real rate applied to their total earnings is significantly lower than that of the tax bracket they are in - unless they are earning so much that the lower rates become insignificant. Either way, if you're in the top tax bracket you probably don't need to be worrying about how much tax you're paying because your net income after tax is still higher than most people would ever even know how to spend.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: Agree or disagree?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:05 pm

PsychoSerenity wrote:I don't know what the rates and thresholds were in 1970s, but generally tax rates only apply to earnings over the given tax threshold, meaning if someone is in the top tax bracket they've already earned a shed-load that has only been taxed at each of the lower rates, and the real rate applied to their total earnings is significantly lower than that of the tax bracket they are in - unless they are earning so much that the lower rates become insignificant. Either way, if you're in the top tax bracket you probably don't need to be worrying about how much tax you're paying because your net income after tax is still higher than most people would ever even know how to spend.
And you never get taxed on all your income. "Taxable income", you've heard this before. The tax lawyers were invented to create loopholes and tax shelters.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74298
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Agree or disagree?

Post by JimC » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:34 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Image
Agree as far as it goes. That doesn't mean that all taxes are appropriate or that higher taxes are always the right thing to do, or that all government spending is proper.
Exactly. I suspect we would disagree on where to draw the tax line, but that is a far cry from the libertarian lunacy "taxes are theft"

I guess that's their equivalent of the equally crazy Marxist line "property is theft"
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
Cormac
Posts: 6415
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Agree or disagree?

Post by Cormac » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:42 pm

MrJonno wrote:
Cormac wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
MrJonno wrote:No bills are pleasant but that doesnt make them evil
That's like saying it's evil to pay to see a movie. If I didn't pay my small bit, and everybody else paid their small bit, billion-dollar movies wouldn't be made.

That Isn't a fair comparison though Zilla. Seeing a movie is entirely voluntary. Taxes, though necessary, are not.
Taxes are purely voluntary no one forces you to be a member of a club (country) unless you of course you think you have some mysterious natural rights to work and live in a country for free

As far as that goes, it still does not mean that taxes are voluntary.

I did nit say that taxes are a bad thing per se, or that they should not be collected, or that they should be voluntary.

I simply said that they are not voluntary.
FUCKERPUNKERSHIT!


Wanna buy some pegs Dave, I've got some pegs here...
You're my wife now!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests