The UK - better together!

[ronmcd]

OK, my last post of the night. Former Labour MP, now independent (but still staunch unionist) after smacking a few tories and scrapping with the police, Eric Joyce MP on Barroso's comments:
(Joyce is not someone I would normally listen to, but there are some interesting points)

If Scotland votes for independence then are residents of Scotland going to lose their UK citizenship? No, of course not. You can’t be stripped of your citizenship just because you’re resident abroad and in any case there’d be no way for a ‘residual UK’ to distinguishing between ‘Scots’ and ‘people just living in Scotland for now’. Moreover, the UK accepts dual or even multiple citizenship (and so would an independent Scotland) so even people who chose Scottish citizenship would have the same right as those with French or Pakistani passports to retain their ‘UK citizenship’. Scots who chose to retain their UK citizenship, either alongside a new Scottish citizenship or not, would of course remain EU citizens.

So if Scotland votes for independence the EU will be faced with a ‘new’ country literally full of European citizens and one, by the way, which will claim the same moral right to be members of the EU as the residual parts of the UK (does Barrosso’s ‘principle’ that the ‘continuity’ state has ‘special rights’ really make sense? What if it were the smaller part?).

Would an independent Sotland really be kept out of the EU for a while? Hardly. Think of how the rest of the world would see the spectacle of the people of a new country, all EU citizens, facing deep economic uncertainty and a possible wholesale loss of human rights just to help out politicians worried about secession elsewhere in Europe. No, whether or not Scotland had to re-apply it’s certain that in practical terms it would be treated the same as the residual UK. That is, it would be fully inside the EU toute de suite – or, more likely, it wouldn’t be forced out in the first place.

[mistermack]

..and lives in history as the PM who allowed the union to break up?

I think not!

He's already allowed it. It's out of his control now. If he wasn't keen on Scotland becoming independent, he could have insisted on a 2/3 majority before agreeing to the referendum. I'm totally mystified as to why a vote of 50.00001 % should be considered a mandate for independence.
It might be good enough for a government lasting four years, but for a fundamental changel lasting hundreds of years?
It's ridiculous.

That's why I think Cameron wants a yes vote. If he agreed to that, he's got other motives.

[mistermack]

Eric Joyce? Eric effin Joyce?

Jesus Christ, you are scraping the bottom of the barrel to find support.
He's out, finished, in disgrace. And probably pissed. Well done there. That says a lot for the standard of your .........everything.

[ronmcd]

Eric Joyce? Eric effin Joyce?

Jesus Christ, you are scraping the bottom of the barrel to find support.
He's out, finished, in disgrace. And probably pissed. Well done there. That says a lot for the standard of your .........everything.

(Joyce is not someone I would normally listen to, but there are some interesting points)

Maybe you should read what he actually wrote? They guy isn't a supporter of independence, a disgraced thug of a Labour MP, but he makes some interesting points about the topic. You know, the topic?

Oh thats right, you dont know anything about the topic ...

[Red Celt]

..and lives in history as the PM who allowed the union to break up?

I think not!

Eric Joyce? Eric effin Joyce?

Jesus Christ, you are scraping the bottom of the barrel to find support.
He's out, finished, in disgrace. And probably pissed. Well done there. That says a lot for the standard of your .........everything.

(Joyce is not someone I would normally listen to, but there are some interesting points)

Maybe you should read what he actually wrote? They guy isn't a supporter of independence, a disgraced thug of a Labour MP, but he makes some interesting points about the topic. You know, the topic?

Oh thats right, you dont know anything about the topic ...

[Rum]

[Thinking Aloud]

I'm glad all this stuff has no effect on me whatsoev...


crap

[Rum]

What's the four for TA?

..and don't you want to be Scotch then?

[Red Celt]

What's the four for TA?

..and don't you want to be Scotch then?

He's more of a Bourbon.

[Rum]

Not our TA! TT more like!

[ronmcd]

Ha. Daily Star commenting on Scotland's constitutional future, hilarious.

Rather than quoting the Daily Star (cant get over that) I'd rather listen to the considered thoughts of Blair Jenkins, YES Scotland chief executive:

"Mr Barroso’s comments are carefully phrased, because he knows that suggestions Scotland would be kicked out of the EU don’t make sense. Think what this would mean, not for Scotland but for other countries across the EU. Nations such as Spain would lose access to Scottish fisheries waters – this would have a decimating effect on the Spanish fishing industry.

"It would mean that every EU student in Scotland would either have to leave their university course or start paying fees as international students – is anyone credibly suggesting that this would be allowed to happen, given the cost and disruption thousands of families across the EU would face?"

"The EU would lose a net contributor – resulting in budget cuts for key programmes in other Member States.

"Every existing EU programme from structural funds to the Common Agricultural Policy would have to be re-written; and tens of thousands of EU nationals living in Scotland would lose important rights.

"No EU nation is going to want this to happen or is going to let this happen. That is why an independent Scotland will remain within the EU."

[ronmcd]

An interesting contribution to Barroso's comments from Aidan O’Neill QC:

Normally in international relations, politics trumps law. Not so in the European Union however where the Court of Justice of the European Union has long made it clear that it alone (and not the Commission or the Member States) is the fundamental guardian and interpreter of the European Treaties. And the issue of whether an independent Scotland or the continuing UK remain members of the EU or have to reapply for membership affects not just states but individuals not least because, by virtue of Article 9 TEU, every national of a Member State is also an EU citizen. The Grand Chamber CJEU decision in Rottmann v Bavaria shows that decisions concerning the continuing national status of Member State nationals fall within the ambit of EU law and the supervisory jurisdiction of the CJEU precisely because changes in individuals’ national status may impact upon their acquired EU law rights qua EU citizens. Again, if the Barroso thesis is correct we may then be left with the paradoxical consequence that an independent Scotland would not be entitled to be accepted as a Member State of the EU, but all its (formerly British) nationals would continue to be EU citizens able to enjoy the protections and privileges conferred by EU law while their independent Government incurred none of the responsibilities. That might turn out to be for Scots – in the words of Candide – “the best of all possible worlds” but it is not perhaps a result which, for example, Spanish fishermen suddenly deprived of access to the newly exclusive territorial fishing grounds of an independent Scotland outside the EU would relish.

But if the better thesis is that an independent Scotland would have to negotiate its way either in or out of the European Union, then it may be that any referendum on Scottish independence should indeed contain a second question to guide its Government on this point: do you want an independent Scotland to be in, or out, of the EU ?

This point about us being EU citizens is important, another academic mentioned this week that if there was a move to throw Scotland out after 40 years against our will, for the crime of wanting to change internal political structures, it would end up going to the European Courts on the basis that we are citizens and we cant be chucked out.

Similarly (you'll like this Mistermack) if Scotland votes for independence, do you imagine Scots will lose their UK citizenship? People will be able to choose, and have dual nationality no doubt. What wouldn't happen in what Barroso is suggesting, that we would have that 40 year long citizenship taken from us.

Interesting times.

[mistermack]

More bollocks. Do you own a bollocks mine?

A citizen of a member state is also an EU citizen. So obviously, a citizen of a non-member state is not an
EU citizen. It's not being taken. It just ceases to be. It doesn't take a lot of working out.
Whether citizens of Scotland would be offered dual nationality would be up to the UK government at the time. That would be decided on whether it would be likely to be of benefit to the UK.

You seem to still be trying to argue that Scotland will SOMEHOW be magically created as an EU member, without a vote.
How exactly? Point out the law that allows it? Until I see it in writing, I'll prefer Barroso's word to yours.
And CERTAINLY to Salmond's.

[ronmcd]

More bollocks. Do you own a bollocks mine?

Nope! I do however look at the opinion of the experts, rather than get taken in by political rhetoric.

A citizen of a member state is also an EU citizen. So obviously, a citizen of a non-member state is not an
EU citizen. It's not being taken. It just ceases to be. It doesn't take a lot of working out.

You are assuming, whereas I am listening to legal experts.

Normally in international relations, politics trumps law. Not so in the European Union however where the Court of Justice of the European Union has long made it clear that it alone (and not the Commission or the Member States) is the fundamental guardian and interpreter of the European Treaties. And the issue of whether an independent Scotland or the continuing UK remain members of the EU or have to reapply for membership affects not just states but individuals not least because, by virtue of Article 9 TEU, every national of a Member State is also an EU citizen. The Grand Chamber CJEU decision in Rottmann v Bavaria shows that decisions concerning the continuing national status of Member State nationals fall within the ambit of EU law and the supervisory jurisdiction of the CJEU precisely because changes in individuals’ national status may impact upon their acquired EU law rights qua EU citizens. Again, if the Barroso thesis is correct we may then be left with the paradoxical consequence that an independent Scotland would not be entitled to be accepted as a Member State of the EU, but all its (formerly British) nationals would continue to be EU citizens able to enjoy the protections and privileges conferred by EU law while their independent Government incurred none of the responsibilities. That might turn out to be for Scots – in the words of Candide – “the best of all possible worlds” but it is not perhaps a result which, for example, Spanish fishermen suddenly deprived of access to the newly exclusive territorial fishing grounds of an independent Scotland outside the EU would relish.

Whether citizens of Scotland would be offered dual nationality would be up to the UK government at the time. That would be decided on whether it would be likely to be of benefit to the UK.

No, wrong answer.

You seem to still be trying to argue that Scotland will SOMEHOW be magically created as an EU member, without a vote.
How exactly? Point out the law that allows it? Until I see it in writing, I'll prefer Barroso's word to yours.
And CERTAINLY to Salmond's.

No, if Scotland votes to become independent, there will be at least 2 years for negotiations - with UK over assets and liabilities, and with EU over smooth transition. Scotland WILL remain in EU unless for some reason we decide to leave. But there will be negotiations, of course there will. As Iain MacWhirter explained on the Scottish edition of Newsnight this week .... so will the remainder of UK. Because UK losing a large chunk of land, resources, people, etc will not be able to carry on as before. Scotland will be in EU, if it wants.

Dont fret Mistermack, we will lend you some cash if you get a little short once we are gone ...

[mistermack]

Your windbag woman is on the telly now, and she's as full of shit as you are.

You didn't answer the question. The only question that means anything. And that is, will Scotland become a member state without a unanimous vote? You were asked, and asked, and asked again. And you don't answer.
You just gas gas gas.
But the gas will run out. You do know that?