The UK - better together!

[ronmcd]

I would have thought the historical relationship was a valid reason (one of many) on which to base a decent union.

It's about now, not the past, but even more it's about the future. Do people in Scotland want to be tied to the Westminister system and the decisions it produces? If so, we stay, if not we leave. And the history, shared culture, experiences and family ties will not be changed one iota by moving political control from Westminister to Holyrood (we already HAVE complete control of health, education, law, justice, environment etc).

Personally I think that poster is a pretty pathetic reason for keeping the union. Surely theres a better case than history? Historically, Scotland was an independent nation with it's own independent parliament, and previous to that it's own monarch.

The more I think about it the worse that poster is.

[mistermack]

.
Alex Salmond's deceit has been exposed :

.

First Minister Alex Salmond has said that, in the event of a "yes" vote, Scotland would "quite clearly" remain part of the European Union and negotiations would take place "from within that context".

The president of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, has said that any new independent country would have to apply to join the EU.

"What I said, and it is our doctrine and it is clear since 2004 in legal terms, if one part of a country - I am not referring now to any specific one - wants to become an independent state, of course as an independent state it has to apply to the European membership according to the rules - that is obvious."

Salmond TRIED to give the impression that Scotland would become independent, and still be a member of the EU, while a new application was processed.
Not true, although he convinced the gullible on here.

Now his deceit has been exposed, will he finally state the obvious, which is that following a vote, Scotland CAN'T become independent, until EU membership is agreed by a unanimous vote of the current members. It will have to voluntarily remain part of the UK until it can get that unanimous vote.

If not, it will be automatically OUT of the EU, as soon as independence happens.

[Svartalf]

Just re-conquer Ireland and get it over with. The "British Isles" should be 100% British.

Send the Angles and Saxons and Normans back to the continent... Britain to the Britains, Ireland to the Irish.

[Svartalf]

What about the Picts? Free the Picts!

And, don't get me started on Mercia....the Mercians have been oppressed for too long....

Have Mercia and stop Picting on them!

[ronmcd]

my my MM, you really do have a bee in your bonnet about us uppity scots

From the bbc article:

Mr Barroso also said that, if Scotland became independent, the rest of the UK would not have to negotiate a new position, because of the "principle of the continuity of the state".

Interesting. So the UK would continue as is? Um ... unlikely. The number of commissioners etc would be reduced due to the reduced size of UK, and negotiations would surely be required. Because the other EU members would damn well want a heavily reduced and less influencial UK to be ... reduced. Of course, this would be from WITHIN the EU ...

In response, Ms Sturgeon said: "We do not agree that an independent Scotland will be in the position of having to reapply for European Union membership, because there is no provision for removing EU treaties from any part of EU territory, or for removing European citizenship from the people of a country which has been in the EU for 40 years.

"We have always said that the specific terms of Scotland's continued EU membership as an independent nation will be negotiated - but the crucial point is that these negotiations will take place from within the EU, because in the period immediately following a 'Yes' vote in the referendum, Scotland will still be part of the UK and the EU.

"No serious person can argue that it is anything other than in the interests of the EU to keep Scotland in continuous membership, given this country's huge natural resources in energy and other aspects which make us such a valuable European partner."

It took Greenland 2 years to disentangle itself FROM the EU. How does anyone seriously think that Scotland even COULD be thrown out of EU? The answer is exactly as I have been saying, and legal experts have been saying, and which you admit yourself mistermack .... Scotland will negotiate from within, in the period between the 2014 vote and the date of independence. Why will this happen? Realpolitik. Because to disentangle it all is impossible without long negotiations, and will be against everyones interests: Scotland (and it's Scottish EU citizens, and overseas EU citizens here in Scotland) plus our fishing rights and the rights of those in EU who fish IN our waters, etc etc ...

By 2014 the UK will be trying to get out, and Scotland will be looking to stay in. I wonder which part of the current UK will be most welcome once the referendum rhetoric has passed ...

[ronmcd]

Theres another minor point, minor in terms of it's prominence today, but it might become more important. Scotland is not territory owned by England, or UK. The United Kingdom is a UNION between two kingdoms, legally. Either can dissolve the UNION. We are not talking about Cornwall becoming a new state, we are talking about a union being dissolved. Scotland would be ending the UNION, a union of two supposedly equal parties. The UK which entered the EU will not, technically, exist.

Obviously EU could ignore this point, it's their club I guess. I'm not sure it's unimportant however.

[mistermack]

Theres another minor point, minor in terms of it's prominence today, but it might become more important. Scotland is not territory owned by England, or UK. The United Kingdom is a UNION between two kingdoms, legally. Either can dissolve the UNION. We are not talking about Cornwall becoming a new state, we are talking about a union being dissolved. Scotland would be ending the UNION, a union of two supposedly equal parties. The UK which entered the EU will not, technically, exist.

Obviously EU could ignore this point, it's their club I guess. I'm not sure it's unimportant however.

Absolute unmitigated bollocks.
The UNION can only be dissolved by the the PARLIAMENT of that union.
Scotland has no legal right to dissolve the union unilaterally.

You seem to spout whatever bollocks that flits around in your head, without even thinking about it for a second.

[Svartalf]

Isn't it up to the CROWN to dissolve the Union of its variou kingdoms and territory?

[ronmcd]

Isn't it up to the CROWN to dissolve the Union of its variou kingdoms and territory?

The people of Scotland are sovereign, not Westminister or the crown. Apparently

[ronmcd]

Isn't it up to the CROWN to dissolve the Union of its variou kingdoms and territory?

... although its a good point, the union of the CROWNS was 100 years before the union of the PARLIAMENTS. So ... no. I don't think. I think dissoving the political union has no effect on the union of the crowns.

[ronmcd]

Theres another minor point, minor in terms of it's prominence today, but it might become more important. Scotland is not territory owned by England, or UK. The United Kingdom is a UNION between two kingdoms, legally. Either can dissolve the UNION. We are not talking about Cornwall becoming a new state, we are talking about a union being dissolved. Scotland would be ending the UNION, a union of two supposedly equal parties. The UK which entered the EU will not, technically, exist.

Obviously EU could ignore this point, it's their club I guess. I'm not sure it's unimportant however.

Absolute unmitigated bollocks.
The UNION can only be dissolved by the the PARLIAMENT of that union.
Scotland has no legal right to dissolve the union unilaterally.

You seem to spout whatever bollocks that flits around in your head, without even thinking about it for a second.

Wait, so a union cannot be dissolved by one (edit) PARTY TO it? How - pray - can the union then be dissoved, if one part wont let the other, or demands ALL must agree?

(I'm not laughing with you, btw ...)

[ronmcd]

Isn't it up to the CROWN to dissolve the Union of its variou kingdoms and territory?

(I should think before posting)
it also occurs to me that I should make clear I don't think UK will want to rename itself, or even give the impression to anyone least of all the international cummunity that the United Kindgom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland isn't in existence any more. I am sure the rUK will want to continue as UK.

It just wouldnt be ...


edit: what the hell is a "cummunity"?? I dread to think ...

[Rum]

At best it shows Salmond to be (uncharacteristically) incompetent. They should have been clear about this issue before the clock started to tick.

[mistermack]

Wait, so a union cannot be dissolved by one (edit) PARTY TO it? How - pray - can the union then be dissoved, if one part wont let the other, or demands ALL must agree?

(I'm not laughing with you, btw ...)

It can't. That's EXACTLY the position. It doesn't matter in the slightest if you think it's funny.
If you think otherwise, I'd like to see your evidence.

The UK Parliament is the sovereign body in the UK. The Scottish Parliament has no power of unilateral independence.
You're living in a dream-world. You want it, so it must be so.

Like I said, it's just you spouting bollox from your daydreams.

[Red Celt]

This is like the scene from The Matrix with the repeating cat. You're having a re-run of a previous conversation with exactly the same non-arguments.

My only reply would guarantee an intervention by the moderators. I mean... if they're bored and want something to discuss, I can just go ahead...?

Mistermack... you're the son of a (BLEEP), from a (BLEEP)-shaped family tree. If the leaves of your family tree were shaken, there'd be the distinct smell of (BLEEP). That's how much of a (BLEEP) you are. Wake the (BLEEP) up and smell the (BLEEP) coffee, you (BLEEP) excuse of a bygone era of humanity.

How did I do?