Men -- Are We Not Pulling Our Weight?

[JimC]

Hmmm. Just came across this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/fashi ... ted=1&_r=0

I suppose if your man's not pulling his weight, you could just train him like an orca.

Would I have to eat seals?

[Audley Strange]

@Hades. No problem, I made tremendous sammiches, but then YOU have to clean the whirlwind of unnecessary mess that results when man goes into kitchen.

I think when this is the case, people can lose sight of it. Lack of appreciation, communication and support on either or both sides, leading to building resentments that magnify over time.

This is a valid point which I think is often missed. The Good Lady Strange and I often look at others relationships and to us it is like they are engaged in a point scoring war of attrition. (see above reply to Hades as a comedic example).

Perhaps we are both very lucky in having found each other, since both of us work with the mentality "if that's bothering me,I'll just deal with it" rather than store it up in the ammunition bank for arguments. A team, not duellists.

[Cormac]

@Hades. No problem, I made tremendous sammiches, but then YOU have to clean the whirlwind of unnecessary mess that results when man goes into kitchen.

I think when this is the case, people can lose sight of it. Lack of appreciation, communication and support on either or both sides, leading to building resentments that magnify over time.

This is a valid point which I think is often missed. The Good Lady Strange and I often look at others relationships and to us it is like they are engaged in a point scoring war of attrition. (see above reply to Hades as a comedic example).

Perhaps we are both very lucky in having found each other, since both of us work with the mentality "if that's bothering me,I'll just deal with it" rather than store it up in the ammunition bank for arguments. A team, not duellists.

[hadespussercats]

What I've noticed with J is that, just as pettiness and keeping score can spiral out into that war of attrition, doing things to make each other's lives easier can spiral out, but in a pleasant way.

It takes so little for me, to see J's done something considerate, to want to do something in return-- maybe even to step it up in terms of the kindness and thinking of each other. I can tell its the same way with him.

Sometimes, life wears us down, and that comes out in how we treat each other over the little stuff at home. But when we've got it right, that carries its own momentum, and is pretty wonderful.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'm a stay-at-home husband.

[Coito ergo sum]

I don't see how any of our individual experiences are going to answer a societal question that can really only be addressed by scientifically administered statistical studies.

It may not "answer" the question, but it can do with some discussion.

It would be interesting to hear folks' personal experiences and/or theories on the ways in which men are not pulling their weight, if indeed they are not doing so. For example, a person might say, "I agree that men in general are not pulling their weight, because I think they do less of X, Y or Z, and here is why I think that." That could give some fodder to investigate and see if any harder science has been done in those areas.

The problem I have with some of the studies that have been done so far is that they don't seem to take into account all tasks of daily life, but rather they seem to leave things out (at least that is the impression I get). i wonder what a good scientific study would look like?

I think maybe the best one would be to take say, 1000 random men and 1000 random women and follow them through their day, noting all of the things they do all day and the lengths of time they do it. Given that the "average" person in the US is now estimated to watch 28 hours of television each week, I am fairly sure that neither men nor women are all that overworked...lol...but, it sure would be interesting to see what everyone is actually doing.

[Coito ergo sum]

I don't see how any of our individual experiences are going to answer a societal question that can really only be addressed by scientifically administered statistical studies.

It may not "answer" the question, but it can do with some discussion.

It would be interesting to hear folks' personal experiences and/or theories on the ways in which men are not pulling their weight, if indeed they are not doing so. For example, a person might say, "I agree that men in general are not pulling their weight, because I think they do less of X, Y or Z, and here is why I think that." That could give some fodder to investigate and see if any harder science has been done in those areas.

The problem I have with some of the studies that have been done so far is that they don't seem to take into account all tasks of daily life, but rather they seem to leave things out (at least that is the impression I get). i wonder what a good scientific study would look like?

I think maybe the best one would be to take say, 1000 random men and 1000 random women and follow them through their day, noting all of the things they do all day and the lengths of time they do it. Given that the "average" person in the US is now estimated to watch 28 hours of television each week, I am fairly sure that neither men nor women are all that overworked...lol...but, it sure would be interesting to see what everyone is actually doing.

[Coito ergo sum]

I do all the cooking and shopping and most of the kitchen chores. Mrs. Lak does the laundry. We split the house cleaning and yard work. I make the drinks, she drinks them. Works out well.

Shopping! Yes -- I do the grocery shopping. SWMBO'd hates grocery shopping, but I love it.

Laundry -- I can do my own clothes, but for some reason I don't "get" how to wash women's clothing. Apparently, I ruin it. Although, like my mother, SWMBO'd will not explain to me what the concepts are, so that I can understand why the bras can't just go in the laundry with everything else (or whatever). Women's clothing is very un-utilitarian. SWMBO'd does my clothes a lot, but I keep an eye out and when I see the hamper full of my stuff, I'll pop it in the washer and dryer. Most of my clothes can just go in all together. My business clothes generally goes to the dry cleaner anyway.

We split the cooking. I do 100% of the outdoor and garage work, car care, fixing and interior construction, shelf hanging, furniture moving, dealing with contractors, and all that.

I would actually argue that I do more than 50% of the home life chores. But, I don't do more than I want to do, so it's all good. I am sure she will care more for Little She in the early stages, what with SWMBO'd being the one in possession of the milk dispensers, etc.

[Coito ergo sum]

Why should we pull our weight? What is that weight? Is it an objective measurement or just the basis for another whine?

Seems to be a basis for you to whine.

Damn straight, I took the bins out last time.

Now it's your turn to make me a sammich!

Hades, please...trigger warning that! An Apeluster might see it and fall to the floor twitching and apoplectic over the "make me a sammich" reference. That line has driven more than a few Apelusters offline permanently....

[hadespussercats]

I don't see how any of our individual experiences are going to answer a societal question that can really only be addressed by scientifically administered statistical studies.

It may not "answer" the question, but it can do with some discussion.

It would be interesting to hear folks' personal experiences and/or theories on the ways in which men are not pulling their weight, if indeed they are not doing so. For example, a person might say, "I agree that men in general are not pulling their weight, because I think they do less of X, Y or Z, and here is why I think that." That could give some fodder to investigate and see if any harder science has been done in those areas.

The problem I have with some of the studies that have been done so far is that they don't seem to take into account all tasks of daily life, but rather they seem to leave things out (at least that is the impression I get). i wonder what a good scientific study would look like?

I think maybe the best one would be to take say, 1000 random men and 1000 random women and follow them through their day, noting all of the things they do all day and the lengths of time they do it. Given that the "average" person in the US is now estimated to watch 28 hours of television each week, I am fairly sure that neither men nor women are all that overworked...lol...but, it sure would be interesting to see what everyone is actually doing.

I agree there probably hasn't been a great study done yet on this-- people have their agendas, and much of the social "sciences" seems like a bunch of hokum.

As for TV-- I do a lot of my TV viewing while doing household chores. That removes some of the guilt of watching. Plus, it seems the older I get, that harder a time I have relaxing by doing absolutely nothing. Keeping my hands busy lets my mind shut off.

[Coito ergo sum]

I intend to contribute as much to caring for Little She, but I'm not getting paternity leave, but she'll be off an extended period of time for maternity leave. So, when she's home, I'm figuring she'll take care of the house as well as Little She. I'm thinking we wouldn't need the cleaning lady, but I don't know -- the cost may be worth not having the discussion. :-)

If you can still afford the service of your cleaning lady, what a lovely gift to Little She and her mother .. and yourself too ... to have more relaxed time for each other.

I have a feeling we'll keep the cleaning lady. But, it would only be a gift to SWMBO'd if we assign the housework as "her" work by definition, which it isn't since we split it about evenly as it is. But, we do that because both of us work hard outside of the home. If I were to stay home all day to take care of Little She, I wouldn't dream of having a cleaning lady. We have a naturally clean house as it is, since we are very meticulous at cleaning up after ourselves immediately. The cleaning lady we have now doesn't think our house needs cleaning. After the cleaning lady is through, our house looks brand new. LOL.

But, I think I'll be leaving it up to SWMBO'd whether she thinks she needs the cleaner coming around.

I think most of these things even out, roughly.

I think when this is the case, people can lose sight of it. Lack of appreciation, communication and support on either or both sides, leading to building resentments that magnify over time.

Lack of appreciation and lack of communication/support can certainly cause resentment. That's why I always say "thank you" for the things She does -- especially dinner. I was taught that growing up anyway -- it was inculcated into us as children that when we are finished eating we said a traditional "thank you" saying in my parents' native language. I find I do probably quite a bit more communicating appreciation to She than She does toward me, but I think that's pretty normal in relationships. Stereoptypically and traditionally, men aren't supposed to require as much "support" as women (not saying that's right, just that it is stereotypical male in our culture -- we're supposed to be practical, strong, and it's frowned up on to need people telling you how much they appreciate you doing things and all).

[Coito ergo sum]

I don't see how any of our individual experiences are going to answer a societal question that can really only be addressed by scientifically administered statistical studies.

It may not "answer" the question, but it can do with some discussion.

It would be interesting to hear folks' personal experiences and/or theories on the ways in which men are not pulling their weight, if indeed they are not doing so. For example, a person might say, "I agree that men in general are not pulling their weight, because I think they do less of X, Y or Z, and here is why I think that." That could give some fodder to investigate and see if any harder science has been done in those areas.

The problem I have with some of the studies that have been done so far is that they don't seem to take into account all tasks of daily life, but rather they seem to leave things out (at least that is the impression I get). i wonder what a good scientific study would look like?

I think maybe the best one would be to take say, 1000 random men and 1000 random women and follow them through their day, noting all of the things they do all day and the lengths of time they do it. Given that the "average" person in the US is now estimated to watch 28 hours of television each week, I am fairly sure that neither men nor women are all that overworked...lol...but, it sure would be interesting to see what everyone is actually doing.

I agree there probably hasn't been a great study done yet on this-- people have their agendas, and much of the social "sciences" seems like a bunch of hokum.

As for TV-- I do a lot of my TV viewing while doing household chores. That removes some of the guilt of watching. Plus, it seems the older I get, that harder a time I have relaxing by doing absolutely nothing. Keeping my hands busy lets my mind shut off.

I agree with you on the social sciences thing. It's very mushy, and as such it's easy to make things come out the way a particular researcher thinks they should.

I try to change my mindset on things. When I mow the lawn and clean the garage I purposefully tell myself that now I "get" to mow the lawn or clean the garage. I try to think of it as fun, as exercise, and as a thing that will make me happy when it is done, because everything will just look awesome and be really organized, etc. That works for me -- it's along the lines of my theory that happiness is a choice. One can take almost any situation and be happy through it, just by "choosing" to enjoy it. It's all in the mind.

[JimC]

What I've noticed with J is that, just as pettiness and keeping score can spiral out into that war of attrition, doing things to make each other's lives easier can spiral out, but in a pleasant way.

It takes so little for me, to see J's done something considerate, to want to do something in return-- maybe even to step it up in terms of the kindness and thinking of each other. I can tell its the same way with him.

Sometimes, life wears us down, and that comes out in how we treat each other over the little stuff at home. But when we've got it right, that carries its own momentum, and is pretty wonderful.

[JimC]

CES wrote:

I try to change my mindset on things. When I mow the lawn and clean the garage I purposefully tell myself that now I "get" to mow the lawn or clean the garage. I try to think of it as fun, as exercise, and as a thing that will make me happy when it is done, because everything will just look awesome and be really organized, etc. That works for me -- it's along the lines of my theory that happiness is a choice. One can take almost any situation and be happy through it, just by "choosing" to enjoy it. It's all in the mind.

I know what you mean, and I agree. I do it a little differently, but with the same result. I have a "To Do List", usually just in my mind, but sometimes on paper, and I get a certain amount of pleasure in systematically working through it to the end.

Sitting down with a G & T and a good book when I've reached the end of the day's list is nice too...

[Coito ergo sum]

CES wrote:

I try to change my mindset on things. When I mow the lawn and clean the garage I purposefully tell myself that now I "get" to mow the lawn or clean the garage. I try to think of it as fun, as exercise, and as a thing that will make me happy when it is done, because everything will just look awesome and be really organized, etc. That works for me -- it's along the lines of my theory that happiness is a choice. One can take almost any situation and be happy through it, just by "choosing" to enjoy it. It's all in the mind.

I know what you mean, and I agree. I do it a little differently, but with the same result. I have a "To Do List", usually just in my mind, but sometimes on paper, and I get a certain amount of pleasure in systematically working through it to the end.

Sitting down with a G & T and a good book when I've reached the end of the day's list is nice too...

Yep.

It's kind of like my reaction to all the people telling me how bad it is going to suck when Little She is born. Oh, you'll never have a life again! You'll never get to do anything again! You'll never sleep again!

They are "choosing" to react to parenthood in a negative way, and they are choosing to look at what they won't or don't have anymore. I generally respond with a quick -- "I think it's going to be great."

I'm already in family man mode. I honestly don't need to "go out" on a Friday night. I'm sure there will be times that we will go out - drop Little She off with grandma and grandpa for an evening,and then we go out and meet some friends. But, if we miss some of those times, it won't bother me at all. I love our house. We have lots to do there. Our back patio is great. I can invite friends over and we can throw food on the grill, crack open a few cold ones and have fun. No reason Little She can't be there.