Israel / Palestine - the THREE state solution?

[Drewish]

[Coito ergo sum]

Coito

I am assuming you are American.

I seem to recall a time, about 1776 IIRC, when the people of the USA kicked out a British government. At the time, there was no USA as we know it today. The peoples of Palestine were in a similar position, but did not have the strength to kick out their British overlords.

Yes, I am an American. The British overlords did leave, once they set up functioning governments. But, in any case, Jews living in the region of Palestine are also "peoples" there. The land is not inherently Muslim.

The British mandate led to a lot of decisions being made that were against the wishes of the people, and against their interests.

Yes, but you seem to be assuming that the wishes of Grand Mufti al Hayani and his ilk constitute the wishes of "the people,' and that the wishes of the people in the Jewish majority areas are not worth as much as the wishes of the people in the Muslim majority areas. Why couldn't the Jewish majority areas be made into a Jewish state in 1947? Why would the will of the Muslim population have to prevail everywhere?

In America, that same situation led to revolution and independence. In Palestine, due to their relative weakness, it led to tyranny and oppression.

The decisions of the British mandate were not "moral" in the sense we appreciate today, since it was colonialism abused. The vast majority of those living in Palestine

Define "Palestine?" Does it include the land on which the state of Israel was created in 1947? And, is the State of Israel, in your view, properly part of a Muslim State that would cover Gaza, West Bank and current day Israel?

before WWII were Muslim Arabs, and their forebears had lived there for 1500 years.

You forget that Jews and Christians lived there too, for far longer than there were Muslims.

The real reason why the British (and the USA) pushed through the immigration of vast numbers of Jews and the expulsion

You can't use these terms without backing them up. Expulsion. You say the Brits and the USA "expelled" Palestinians? What are you referring to here? An official expulsion policy displacing people? Or, something de facto? What exactly are you talking about?

of so many of the native peoples of Palestine was religious. They thought the Jews were the chosen people of God and that Palestine was the Holy Land, ordained by God for the Jews. They also believed in the superstition that those who aided the chosen people would also be blessed by God.

In 1947, most people who weren't Jewish didn't really think of "the Jews" as the chosen people of God. Most non-Jews didn't much like the Jews and thought they were pretenders.

Are you religious, Coito?

I'm an atheist.

Do you also believe that superstition?

No.

Because, frankly, there was no rational reason for bringing in all those Jews.

Another heavily loaded set of words here. "bringing in all those Jews." Who "brought them in?" When? The VAST majority of Jewish immigration took place AFTER partition, Blind Groper. AFTER Israel became a State. The immigration from 1918 to 1936 was really just in the 10s of thousands of people. From 1937 to 1947, in increased but still only a few thousands per year.

In the 1930's, the Grand Mufti -- the ally of Hitler that I mentioned -- obviously objected to the Jewish immigration, because he was a good Nazi sympathizer. Who else was objecting to the immigration? And, was it the flood of "all those Jews" that you referred to?

There was no moral reason for bringing in all those Jews. There was only a superstitious and religious reason.

Some Jews wanted to live there. They weren't 'brought in."

The only objection to them living there is a racist/ethnocentric one.

This continues today. There is no rational or moral reason for the USA to support Israel in their continued oppression of the Palestinians. There is only a religious reason. Of course, 90% of Americans are religious, and believe in the Abrahamic deity. That is, at root, the reason Americans do something so wrong as to support ongoing oppression of the unfortunate Palestinian peoples.

Muslims believe in the Abrahamic deity too.

American policy, traditionally, and today, has been motivated very little by religion. It was not the US that controlled the region in the first half of the 20th century, and it was not the US that acted as a major player in the formation of the countries of that region.

[Blind groper]

But, in any case, Jews living in the region of Palestine are also "peoples" there. The land is not inherently Muslim.

During the time of the Ottoman Empire, non Muslims were few and far between, and kept their heads down, since the government was not terribly friendly to non Muslims. During the time of the British mandate, a lot of Jews immigrated into Palestine. This was with permission of Britain, not the Palestinian people. Before this happened, there were no Jewish majority areas. The prevailing will should have been the will of the majority. But it was not a democracy.

Define "Palestine?

Palestine was the area of the British Mandate between WWI and WWII. It was a majority Muslim nation, under the governance of a foreign power.

What are you referring to here? An official expulsion policy displacing people?

If you had read my reference, you would know this. The expulsion took place in 1948, as a result of the Jewish people, now in power, killing Palestinians, and destroying their homes and other property. Over 700,000 Palestinians fled in fear of their lives.

In 1947, most people who weren't Jewish didn't really think of "the Jews" as the chosen people of God.

It is in the bleeding bible! Christians everywhere believed it.

"bringing in all those Jews." Who "brought them in?"

Obviously, they chose to come. But they came at the invitation of the colonial powers, against the wishes of the Muslim majority.

You forget that Jews and Christians lived there too, for far longer than there were Muslims.

Very, very few, over than 1500 year period. About 500 AD, the Jews were forced out of their homeland by the Romans. Arabs took over, and made their homes there for 1500 years. At the end of that 1500 year period, it was no longer a Jewish land. it was an Arabic land.

The only objection to them living there is a racist/ethnocentric one.

The objection was the will of the majority. In a proper democracy, with human rights respected, that will would have been the guide line. Only in a totalitarian state would that will be ignored as it was in Palestine. The majority were proven correct, as current events demonstrate in a most tragic way.

American policy, traditionally, and today, has been motivated very little by religion.

Wrong. American policy is and has always been strongly influenced by religion, for the simple reason that most Americans are religious, and the government has to please the voters. This is clearly demonstrated by the claims made by political candidates (and especially presidential ones) of how damn religious they are!

[Coito ergo sum]

But, in any case, Jews living in the region of Palestine are also "peoples" there. The land is not inherently Muslim.

During the time of the Ottoman Empire, non Muslims were few and far between, and kept their heads down, since the government was not terribly friendly to non Muslims. During the time of the British mandate, a lot of Jews immigrated into Palestine. This was with permission of Britain, not the Palestinian people. Before this happened, there were no Jewish majority areas. The prevailing will should have been the will of the majority. But it was not a democracy.

It wasn't a democracy under the Ottoman Empire too, and you seem to take it as acceptable status quo that Jews and other non-Muslims had to either stay out or keep their heads down. So, the British take over, and they liberalize, allowing nonMuslims to move there too. And, THAT is where you think the problem starts?

If the majority of Americans wanted to bar Mexicans from emigrating, that would be a violation of human rights under the UN Declaration. You can't just prohibit a racial or ethnic group from immigrating because of their race or religion. That's what your saying the Arabs should be permitted to do. Exclude Jews qua Jews. And, you are arguing that when the British allowed some thousands of Jews to immigrate, and when the British protected Jews from persecution by Arabs, that the Brits began the oppression of the Palestinian peoples.

Define "Palestine?

Palestine was the area of the British Mandate between WWI and WWII. It was a majority Muslim nation, under the governance of a foreign power.

Well, this is incorrect, because the British Mandate was this:

It was not a nation. It was an area that was once part of the dead Ottoman Empire.

So - you think that Israel -- the current country -- all of it -- should be Muslim?

How many immigrants do you claim entered the area that is now Israel between 1918 and 1947?

What are you referring to here? An official expulsion policy displacing people?

If you had read my reference, you would know this. The expulsion took place in 1948, as a result of the Jewish people, now in power, killing Palestinians, and destroying their homes and other property. Over 700,000 Palestinians fled in fear of their lives.

So, that's a weird way of wording that it was not an expulsion, but it was the "exodus" of Palestinians as a result of the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine and the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. And, you phrase this as the Jews killing Palestinians, and not as what it really was -- a war between the Arabs and the Israelis, initiated by the Arabs.

You're referring to the "Nakba" - or "catastrophe" as the Arabs called it. Well -- now let's look at the facts. Israel was created on the Jewish areas of the so called "Holy Land." That event was unacceptable to the Arabs, who started warring, looking to destroy the new state of Israel. They lost. Many Palestinians high-tailed it out of there because of the war.

Clearly -- this is not how you first phrased it, as if it was some sort of official expulsion where Palestinians were just hanging around minding their own business, rounded up and expelled.

In 1947, most people who weren't Jewish didn't really think of "the Jews" as the chosen people of God.

It is in the bleeding bible! Christians everywhere believed it.

Christians everywhere thought the Jews had horns on their heads, ate babies and poisoned the wells, in addition to killing their Messiah. Hatred of the Jews is not just a recent phenomenon. Why do you think there was purge after purge of Jews all over the world?

The Catholic church position on the Jews as that they were going to hell, up until very recently. And, I think at best today it's an open question.

Christians generally didn't think that the then present day Jews were the same people as described in the Bible as the People of Israel, etc.

"bringing in all those Jews." Who "brought them in?"

Obviously, they chose to come. But they came at the invitation of the colonial powers, against the wishes of the Muslim majority.

Again -- do you have proof that the majority of Muslims at the time -- the Majority of the people there -- were opposed to Jews qua Jews moving to the region?

And, even if the majority did oppose it -- how is that different from the majority of Americans or Brits deciding that no Muslims ought to be admitted? Aren't you siding with racism/ethnocentrism here?

You forget that Jews and Christians lived there too, for far longer than there were Muslims.

Very, very few, over than 1500 year period. About 500 AD, the Jews were forced out of their homeland by the Romans. Arabs took over, and made their homes there for 1500 years. At the end of that 1500 year period, it was no longer a Jewish land. it was an Arabic land.

Arabs are not the same as Muslims. There are Arab Muslims. There are Christian Muslims, Chaldeans, Lebanese Christians, etc. There are Jewish Arabs.

It is not "Arab" land any more than Europe is Caucasian land. Or, are you saying that Europe is Caucasian land? How about the US? 70% of the US is Caucasian. Do we get to claim it as a white country, under your analysis? Or, is a supermajority not enough?

The only objection to them living there is a racist/ethnocentric one.

The objection was the will of the majority. In a proper democracy, with human rights respected, that will would have been the guide line. Only in a totalitarian state would that will be ignored as it was in Palestine. The majority were proven correct, as current events demonstrate in a most tragic way.

On what basis do you claim to know the will of the majority in 1947?

American policy, traditionally, and today, has been motivated very little by religion.

Wrong. American policy is and has always been strongly influenced by religion, for the simple reason that most Americans are religious, and the government has to please the voters. This is clearly demonstrated by the claims made by political candidates (and especially presidential ones) of how damn religious they are!

This is just a fundamental misunderstanding of US foreign policy over the past 225 or so years, and it is yet another non-American who thinks they know how the US operates, when you clearly don't. Please, though, enlighten me. Rather than describe why you think it makes sense that US foreign policy could be religiously motivated, why don't you give a couple examples of major US foreign policy actions that were, in fact, motivated by religion?

The War of 1812? Nope. The Mexican American War? Nope. The Civil War? Nope. The Spanish American War? Nope. World War 1 or 2? Nope. Korea? Vietnam? Nope. Afghanistan? Iraq? Nope.

What comes to mind as the biggest example, in your mind?

[Blind groper]

Coito

You cannot accept that the actions of a colonial power, doing things against the will and interests of the people, is right.
The history of your country is a rebellion against that idea. The Arabic Muslim people who have, for 1500 years, been by far the greatest majority in Palestine, had things foisted upon them which led, in time, to a civil war, and an invading group driving over 700,000 out of their own country as refugees. I do not care what you call that mass of people being driven out. You can call it an exodus, if you like. It was not their choice. They lost their homes and their country, and many of their people were killed. It was wrong!

And the continuing persecution of the Palestinian people by Israel with the support of the USA is also wrong. Big time wrong!

I have already said that Israel is here to stay. We cannot turn the clock of history backwards and erase the evil actions of that time. But the guilty parties (Israel, USA, and Britain) can make a major effort to try to help the victims, and create something new and worthwhile. That is : a new Palestine, sovereign and independent. Those parties, though are simply continuing the persecution.

[Coito ergo sum]

Coito

You cannot accept that the actions of a colonial power, doing things against the will and interests of the people, is right.

For some reason, you don't consider Jews to be "people." The land is not inherently Muslim. The land designated as Israel in 1947 was majority Jewish inhabited. For some reason, you think it ought to have been a Muslim country, because people living in lands outside those majority Jewish areas were majority Muslim. Then, when Israel takes land from countries that attack it (for the express purpose of destroying Israel and committing genocide on the Jews living there), you think that it is illegal for Israel to keep the captured land.

The history of your country is a rebellion against that idea. The Arabic Muslim people who have, for 1500 years, been by far the greatest majority in Palestine, had things foisted upon them which led, in time, to a civil war, and an invading group driving over 700,000 out of their own country as refugees.

The Arab countries were the invaders. Israel was formed on majority Jewish land.

I do not care what you call that mass of people being driven out. You can call it an exodus, if you like. It was not their choice.

It was not an expulsion. That's what you called it, but it wasn't.

They lost their homes and their country, and many of their people were killed. It was wrong!

The problem is, you're wrong on the facts of what happened.

And the continuing persecution of the Palestinian people by Israel with the support of the USA is also wrong. Big time wrong!

The persecutors in the middle east are the Muslims. The persecution of Jews, Christians, atheists, women, homosexuals, etc., is widespread and systemic, and state-sponsored. The Arab often openly declare genocide as their goal.

I have already said that Israel is here to stay. We cannot turn the clock of history backwards and erase the evil actions of that time. But the guilty parties (Israel, USA, and Britain) can make a major effort to try to help the victims, and create something new and worthwhile. That is : a new Palestine, sovereign and independent. Those parties, though are simply continuing the persecution.

The USA is not guilty. It was the British Mandate for Palestine.

The Palestinians can have a state anytime they want one. However, if they keep attacking Israel, then I suspect Israel will keep defending itself. If Mexico started lobbing rockets into southern California, I expect the US would respond pretty fiercely, and rightly so.

[Blind groper]

Coito

Before WWII there was very little Jewish presence in Palestine. When I talk of the majority, I am talking of a vast majority of Muslim Arabs. The great influx of Jews after WWII was not at the request or with the consent of that majority. It is just like if you in America suddenly had 300 million Chinese march into your country, and take up residence, in spite of anything you Americans say, and then decide to divide the country, and push all the Americans into one half of the country, while they occupy the other half. I can imagine that you would not be happy - to put it mildly!

In spite of what you are saying, this is not simple immigration. It is more like a military conquest followed by an eviction of the citizens.