Guns Used.....cont

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Seth
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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Seth » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:14 am

Blind groper wrote:
PordFrefect wrote:Great? How is a drop in suicide rate a good thing, nevermind an argument against guns?
Sadly this thread has now got to the stage where I am repeating the same thing the third or fourth time. People forget what has been said.
No, we don't forget, we reject and dismiss your lame, recondite arguments as the specious nonsense they are.
Suicides are usually impulsive and attempts that are survived mostly are not repeated. People who are depressed, leading to suicide attempts, recover and live long and reasonably happy lives. Personally, I believe that human lives matter, and people should, where possible, be given the chance to survive.
No you don't. You lie. You are spouting this bombastic nonsense while utterly refusing to look at the cost in human lives and misery that would be caused by disarming the public in America. Up to two million more criminal victimizations and who knows how many more murders if your idiotic arguments are accepted, all yto theoretically (not provably) reduce the chances that a tiny fraction of the population who want to end their lives will have a more difficult time doing so.

I say it's not worth the denigration of our civil liberties and that an armed citzenry has so many positive benefits to our society, from keeping the peace to preventing crime to constraining our elected officials, that it would be sheer stupidity to ban handguns or any other types of firearms in the US. We'd all end up as helpless sheeple like you, and that's not on my agenda, sorry.

The suicides will just have to fend for themselves and take the risk that their selection of a handgun for the method will be, as they wish and have every right to demand, 95% effective.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Seth » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:22 am

FBM wrote:
Blind groper wrote:No. It was not forceful disarming. In fact, such a process would not really be needed in the USA either. It was a simple process of tightening the gun laws over a period of time, and permitting the people to adapt.

For example : if a new gun law requires a license, with the need to pass an exam, and undergo a police inspection, then the people are given time to prepare.
I had to do all those things to get a concealed carry permit, but only the background check to buy handguns. I mentioned some time ago that I'm all for obligatory education, training and testing, but I don't see that as a first step towards a gradual disarming of the public, just a reasonable measure to prevent accidents. As long as the majority don't want the Second Amendment changed, the gummit shouldn't violate it. There's already a debate on whether or not existing laws infringe upon the citizens' right to bear arms. District of Columbia v Heller should have cleared that up, but some local law enforcement agencies don't see it that way. Anyway, I imagine the next generation will be slightly less interested in guns than this one, and the one after that slightly less interested, etc.
You should have been at the Phoenix gun show this weekend like I was. They had both the Crossroads of the West and the Small Arms Review gun shows at the same time. It's the largest gun show in the US, and it was absolutely packed. Most of the AR-15 manufacturers were wiped out of bare receivers in the week after Obama was elected. I bought 2 "95 percent" receivers that don't have to go through the BATFE paperwork because they aren't finished. I can finish them on my friend's milling machine in a couple of hours and have two sterile receivers that don't appear on BATFE paperwork. Hundreds of thousands of others are doing the same thing, stocking up on AR and AK and other bare receivers in anticipation of another "assault weapons" ban.

I also purchased, through private sale, with NO paperwork at all, a new, unfired H&K USP .45 Compact Tactical, which matches my carry gun but has a threaded barrel for a suppressor, and a Nemesis sniper rifle in .308/7.62, also completely off paper. Neither gun can ever be traced to me, so the goons from the BATFE will never find them (or many of my other guns) no matter how hard they look.

The panic buying has started already, and there will be many more millions of guns in circulation before anybody can even try to stop it.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Seth » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:24 am

Blind groper wrote:No. It was not forceful disarming. In fact, such a process would not really be needed in the USA either. It was a simple process of tightening the gun laws over a period of time, and permitting the people to adapt.

For example : if a new gun law requires a license, with the need to pass an exam, and undergo a police inspection, then the people are given time to prepare.
Or, more likely, they just ignore the law and shoot dead any government agent that tries to enforce it.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by mozg » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:21 pm

Blind groper wrote: "The plural of anecdote is not data."

it is a truism that anecdotes, such as you quoted, are not evidence for anything general.
Those are examples of what research has shown happens upwards of 200,000 times a year.
[You asked how you make a gun childproof?
The technology already exists. There are gun locks that cannot be released by a child. There is a trigger system that requires more force to pull the trigger than a child can apply.
Ah, the NYPD-2 12 lb trigger. Yeah, it's great for fucking your accuracy to hell. As for the gun locks, most of them can be opened by children and there are videos all over YouTube of them doing so.
Please show me the external safety 'switch' on these guns:

Image
Image
Evidence for gun safes saving lives?
The New England Journal of Medicine article I just recently quoted has the statement that suicides drop dramatically when the gun in the home is in secure storage.
Statements made by the NEJM without proof are still just statements. Your appeal to authority doesn't work here.
'Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! ..But He loves you.' - George Carlin

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Jason » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:43 pm

Ew.. a Ruger. You have sullied this thread.

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by mozg » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:44 pm

PordFrefect wrote:Ew.. a Ruger. You have sullied this thread.
What's wrong with the Ruger?

It's moderately priced, reliable, dependable, accurate and easy as hell to use.
'Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! ..But He loves you.' - George Carlin

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Jason » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:46 pm

I'm a quality guy. I don't buy Norinco and I don't buy Ruger. Just looking at them offends me. Whenever I see some in a gun shop I have to go on a loud rant about how much they suck.

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Gallstones » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:47 pm

Image
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Gallstones » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:47 pm

PordFrefect wrote:I'm a quality guy. I don't buy Norinco and I don't buy Ruger. Just looking at them offends me. Whenever I see some in a gun shop I have to go on a loud rant about how much they suck.
In the store!




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Last edited by Gallstones on Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Jason » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:49 pm

Yep. It helps to have someone with me so I don't look nuts.

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by mozg » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:55 pm

PordFrefect wrote:I'm a quality guy. I don't buy Norinco and I don't buy Ruger. Just looking at them offends me. Whenever I see some in a gun shop I have to go on a loud rant about how much they suck.
I've had that Ruger for 13 years and put thousands of rounds through it. I can count ON ONE HAND the number of FTF and FTEs that I've had. It has not performed any better or worse than the Glock, and there is really only one reason that it's not my daily carry. It's bigger than the Glock and harder to conceal. That's it.

I've also got a Ruger Mark III target pistol in .22 LR that shoots beautifully, and that I really enjoy taking out to the range because I know I can put a couple bricks of ammo through it in a day and it'll fire every round from the first to the last right on target. It is a bit of a bitch to clean, but a good bore snake helps that a lot.

A more apt comparison, to me, would be Hi-Point and Norinco. Neither of those are guns I'd buy.
'Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! ..But He loves you.' - George Carlin

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Gallstones » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:02 pm

Any recommendations on a decent CC sized .22 pistol?
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by mozg » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:06 pm

Gallstones wrote:Any recommendations on a decent CC sized .22 pistol?
Any particular reason you want a .22 for it?

The only ones I know of are the Beretta Bobcat and the Taurus PT-22 and I've heard both of those are prone to jam.
'Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! ..But He loves you.' - George Carlin

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Jason » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:08 pm

Not really, I don't know much about pocket pistols. Walther P22?

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Jason » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:09 pm

.22LR pistols make decent self-defence weapons. 3 shots and they'll drop. 1 if you're a good shot.

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