Israel / Palestine - the THREE state solution?

[Jesus_of_Nazareth]

I favour the THREE state solution..........

- Palestine gets recognised by the UN (including the US and EU) as an independent State (same as Israel)......within the 1967 Border (IMO not really a biggie - as the border of Israel is already recognised internationally as being exactky there!, so SFA to do with the Palestinian State making a land grab).

- Initially as a UN protecterate (for say 10 years / until the Palestinians have shown a ability to control themselves, including no attacks on Israel and have shown - the ability for the State to function)......the UN protecterate status would restrict the Palestinians ability to act internationally (and to arm themselves)....in exchange for which the UN would send in Peacekeepers, including US and EU troops especially to man the Israel border and checkpoints (in conjunction with the Palestinians). Initially the Courts (especially when dealing with the Jews / Settlements) would have UN control / supervision to stop any barmy ideas!

- Israel gets to keep it's wall (to be fair, it does seem to be working) - until they are happy to take it down. The price of that is they get charged rent on the Palestinian land behind the wall - collected from tax levies on goods exported and paid to the new Palestinian State.

- Gaza becomes a semi-automonous region of Palestine.....but the Palestinian State does not get punished for any stupidity coming from there.

- Jerusalem becomes the official capital of both Israel and Palestine - albeit for the Palestinians the administrative capital is elsewhere. (the stick is that the EU / US can have a joint embassy for both - up to Israel if it wants neither!).

- the existing Settlements get to remain, except they are charged rent (on an escalating basis over the years) and tax on activities - Non-payment and fines for non-compliance get recovered from Israel direct via additional taxes on exports to the West.

- Settlements can have Israeli Army outposts, but only if they also get UN forces with Palestinian representatives. Whilst a UN protecterate a plan is devised / negotiated for some (many?) of the Settlements to be given up by Israel, even if that involves economically blockading (free movement of people - just not of goods).

- The people inside the Settlements are subject to Palestinian law - albeit not enforced within the Settlements, but the laws backed by the UN when they impact elsewhere (i.e. if the Settlors start shooting at the locals), and they get enforced by UN forces - even if that only amounts to sentences being suspended and offenders being deported to Israel.

- for the resources (especially water), the UN declares a doctrine of "fair usage" and provides a forum (court?) that decides based on the principle of sharing - decisions enforced by financial penalties.

- The Palestinian State gets international aid (from US / EU and Arab oil states) that is designated as compensation for having the Settlements / less than fair use of resources.

- The Palestinian State agrees not to militarily enforce it's border with Israel - which is recognised by the UN as both the border of the Palestine (on the 1967 map) but also as an internal border for a single state (see below!).

- The Palestinian State agrees to limit it's armed forces - in exchange for a defence Guarantee from UN and US / EU (kinda like South Korea).

- The Palestinian State recognises the State of Israel as the Jewish Homeland and to never seek to expel them.

- The Palestinians get associate membership of the EU (trade concessions), with the prospect of further benefits depending on performance.......ideally would want Palestine to become a route into the EU for Israeli goods! (goods exported direct from Israel subject to higher tarrifs!). The idea being to make Palestine have a cash value to Israel (some stereotypes are based on fact!).

- The UN sets a timetable for the Palestinians to get the above (and no doubt other stuff), so not everything on day 1 and some things come simply from time and others only when specific conditions are met (not all simply about not attacking Israel - as much about good governance).

- The UN sets up a number of Forums for Israel and Palestine to discuss various matters (security co-operation / resources / single state etc etc) the idea being that matters can be sorted individually, if wanted.

- on the "right to return" - individual Palestinians get compensated for property losses (in exchange for giving up claims) and those with no property also get money (Pensions?) and simply from the fact of getting own State. However the "right to return" claim remains - except the Palestinian State agrees that it gets redefined as being only when the Promised land gets re-united in peace (see below) and is not specific to any actual property.

and now the 3rd State angle!

- The Palestinian State agrees to seek to join Israel in becoming a single state! - however only by mutual consent. Initially the UN plan is that both sides must vote by 75% (plus?!) and that the first vote won't happen for 50 years! (the idea being that both sides can still wet dream about one country - and in a few hundred years it might actually happen!).

- The UN recognises the Israel / Palestine Federation (probably need a better name!) as an entity - kinda like a mini starter EU except with none of the details worked out (that for both of them to agree over coming decades / centuries!) - it could form the basis of a future country, or not.


The Key with the above is that none of the things need the consent of Israel (facts on the ground! and in the UN) - albeit co-operation would be nice. and likely that would happen over time as peace and prosperity slowly happens (Hell, if the Germans and the Jews can get over their differences then it is possible!)..........IMO once both sides get used to the economic benefits then peace will follow. IMO eventually will have free movement of people between Israel and Palestine, with the wall becoming a historic monument.

The other Key is the US wanting peace - my bet is that Obama would like to do something...........time will tell.

[Azathoth]

[Warren Dew]

It would be quicker for Israel just to annex the West Bank and give the residents there citizenship, and for Egypt to take back Gaza.

[Blind groper]

Warren

The mere suggestion would be like touching a fuse to a tonne of dynamite parked under a nuke.

[Jason]

It's be quicker for Israel to just bomb the hell out of every Palestinian home and give their soldiers and citizens free reign shoot Palestinians on sight. Oh wait.. they already do that. Do carry on then Israel. No really.. it's cool. You guys had a holocaust and shit so fair's fair.

[Warren Dew]

It's be quicker for Israel to just bomb the hell out of every Palestinian home and give their soldiers and citizens free reign shoot Palestinians on sight. Oh wait.. they already do that. Do carry on then Israel. No really.. it's cool. You guys had a holocaust and shit so fair's fair.

Two wrongs make a right, eh? Kind of like affirmative action, but with bullets instead of jobs.

[Coito ergo sum]

It's be quicker for Israel to just bomb the hell out of every Palestinian home and give their soldiers and citizens free reign shoot Palestinians on sight. Oh wait.. they already do that. Do carry on then Israel. No really.. it's cool. You guys had a holocaust and shit so fair's fair.

But, this bit about "free reign to shoot Palestinians on sight" and "bomb the hell out of Palestinian Homes" are, well, what words am I looking for here... ummm.... "not true."

[Coito ergo sum]

It would be quicker for Israel just to annex the West Bank and give the residents there citizenship, and for Egypt to take back Gaza.

Quicker, but Israel Israel is concerned, in part, with having a Muslim majority in Israel. It has been made very clear what happens to Jews and Christians when that occurs. One need only look to Lebanon.

[Jason]

It's be quicker for Israel to just bomb the hell out of every Palestinian home and give their soldiers and citizens free reign shoot Palestinians on sight. Oh wait.. they already do that. Do carry on then Israel. No really.. it's cool. You guys had a holocaust and shit so fair's fair.

But, this bit about "free reign to shoot Palestinians on sight" and "bomb the hell out of Palestinian Homes" are, well, what words am I looking for here... ummm.... "not true."

What are the words I'm looking for... 'yes it is'. They killed 4000 Palestinians in one week of bombing the Gaza strip. They build fortified settlements on Palestinian lands and give the settlers there license to shoot anyone who 'threatens' them - which turns out to be just about any Palestinian. Then there's the dozens of times the IDF has shot down innocent civilians approaching their positions for no reason at all (oh they make them up post facto).

Yeah, but it's not true. They're not murdering Palestinians, stealing their land, and committing genocide while the world looks the other way.

[Jason]

It would be quicker for Israel just to annex the West Bank and give the residents there citizenship, and for Egypt to take back Gaza.

Quicker, but Israel Israel is concerned, in part, with having a Muslim majority in Israel. It has been made very clear what happens to Jews and Christians when that occurs. One need only look to Lebanon.

So it's ok to murder them, steal their land, and deprive them of basic human necessities for weeks and months at a time because they're Muslim? They cannot be allowed to retain their property because they're Muslims? Or is it because they're Muslims they are a 'threat' to 'Christians' and 'Jews' so therefore it's ok to murder them, steal their land, and deprive them of their basic human rights?

[Coito ergo sum]

It's be quicker for Israel to just bomb the hell out of every Palestinian home and give their soldiers and citizens free reign shoot Palestinians on sight. Oh wait.. they already do that. Do carry on then Israel. No really.. it's cool. You guys had a holocaust and shit so fair's fair.

But, this bit about "free reign to shoot Palestinians on sight" and "bomb the hell out of Palestinian Homes" are, well, what words am I looking for here... ummm.... "not true."

What are the words I'm looking for... 'yes it is'. They killed 4000 Palestinians in one week of bombing the Gaza strip. They build fortified settlements on Palestinian lands and give the settlers there license to shoot anyone who 'threatens' them - which turns out to be just about any Palestinian. Then there's the dozens of times the IDF has shot down innocent civilians approaching their positions for no reason at all (oh they make them up post facto).

Yeah, but it's not true. They're not murdering Palestinians, stealing their land, and committing genocide while the world looks the other way.

No, it isn't true. Show me the sources you're relying on for your information, and let's talk.

[Jason]

Too lazy, many many documentaries and sources. Go do your own homework.

[Jesus_of_Nazareth]

The rumour I heard is that the Palestinians are ALL going to convert to Judaism (in Islam that is permitted)...........be interesting to see how the Israelis deal with that!

[Coito ergo sum]

It would be quicker for Israel just to annex the West Bank and give the residents there citizenship, and for Egypt to take back Gaza.

Quicker, but Israel Israel is concerned, in part, with having a Muslim majority in Israel. It has been made very clear what happens to Jews and Christians when that occurs. One need only look to Lebanon.

So it's ok to murder them,

no. Murder is not o.k.

steal their land,

which land was stolen? I think we'll need to point it out on the map. Too often, this allegation is more of an assumption than an established fact. Who is "they" and what land was "stolen?"

and deprive them of basic human necessities for weeks and months at a time because they're Muslim?

Wouldn't be "o.k" to deprive them of basic human necessities for weeks at a time, but "because they are Muslim" has nothing to do with it. If it was "because they are weird looking" it would be just as bad. But, this is too general of allegation to answer -- what necessities? When? Were the people being "deprived" entitled to them in the first place?

They cannot be allowed to retain their property because they're Muslims? Or is it because they're Muslims they are a 'threat' to 'Christians' and 'Jews' so therefore it's ok to murder them, steal their land, and deprive them of their basic human rights?

Sure, they can retain their property.

It is "o.k." to kill in self-defense, or to wage defensive war. That's o.k. And, if combatants die, then that's war. And, if noncombatants die, it sucks and is a tragedy but provided they aren't purposefully targeting civilians, like we all know the Palestinians do, then it is the unfortunate consequence of war and not a war crime.

I'm not advocating that they be deprived of basic human rights at all, or that their land be stolen.

However, you're forgetting the history of this thing. Remember that there never was a country called Palestine or a Palestinian State, at least not in the last 2500 years, and when there was, I think it was called Philistine and they worshipped Baal and golden idols. The West Bank was part of Transjordan, which was renamed Jordan. Gaza was part of Egypt. In 1967, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, etc. ganged up on Israel with the STATED GOAL of wiping out the State of Israel and getting rid of "the Jews." Israel kicked a little ass, and took the West Bank and Gaza (and the Golan Heights and such).

Jordan relinquished its claim to the West Bank. Gaza was released by the Israelis. Most of the settlements that occur are Israelis just putting down stakes in unoccupied land. They build a town and live there. Are you saying that because they are Jews they can't do that? The territory is not part of a country. It was taken from Jordan in a war that Jordan started. Israel hasn't annexed it, leaving it stateless territory. I certainly don't advocate anyone going to a Palestinian Arab's home and driving him out of it, but you haven't established that that is happening. You just make the bald allegation that the Jews are stealling "Muslim lands" -- hence my question "what land, exactly?" and, "from whom?"

You also ignore the fact that what groups like Hamas and Fateh, and Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade and Hizb'Allah want -- what they SAY they want is to destroy Israel and drive the Jews out or kill them. To them, and to most "Palestinians"in the latest surveys I've seen, they think that the land on which Israel now sits -- all of it -- including Tel Aviv and the 1949 borders - all of it -- is rightfully "Muslim land." They view the creation of Israel as a great catastrophe. They fucking hate Jews. Because they are Jewish.

Now, look at the map -- see that country right above Israel -- called Lebanon. 40 years ago that was a majority Christian Country, and it was formed as such after the Ottoman breakup. It isn't anymore. You know why? Because Muslim forces drove them out, destroyed what was once the "Paris of the Middle East" and turned it into an Islamic shit pile. Now Hizb'Allah operates out of there and fucks with Israel from the north. They got Lebanon, but they can't leave Israel alone. Lebanon had to be turned Muslim, and it was. Do you think the majority Christian population moved out voluntarily?

And, all this "because they are Muslim" talk is a bit rich. In every Muslim country, Jews, Christians, atheists, and other minorities are discriminated against "because they are..." what they are. They are second class citizens. In some Muslim countries, Christians are lucky they don't wind up beheaded or strung up and hanged. Gays are strung up and hanged, or imprisoned if they're lucky. Palestinian rockets fire by the thousands into Israel, purposefully targeting civilian locations, driving the populace into shelters. And, you get pissed when Israel defends itself from that?

I mean -- for some reason some folks suggest Israel shouldn't even exist, because it is a Jewish country, but they don't seem to speak up when the issue is Muslim countries being Muslim countries. They suggest Israel has no right to exist, but Jordan, Syria and Iraq, and even Lebanon, do have the right to exist even as "Muslim countries," because that's their gig in this "multicultural world."

[Coito ergo sum]

Too lazy, many many documentaries and sources. Go do your own homework.

LOL -- laughable answer in the extreme. Defend your own allegations. But, it is the standard answer from those espousing your view. Mainly, I suspect, it's because you are repeating allegations, but ones that you can't actually substantiate with any specificity.