More news from Plato

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rasetsu
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More news from Plato

Post by rasetsu » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:02 pm



. . . the earth, as being their mother, delivered them, and now, as if their land were their mother and their nurse, they ought to take thought for her and defend her against any attack, and regard the other citizens as their brothers and children of the self-same earth. . . While all of you, in the city, are brothers, we will say in our tale, yet god, in fashioning those of you who are fitted to hold rule, mingled gold in their generation, for which reason they are the most precious — but in the helpers, silver, and iron and brass in the farmers and other craftsmen. And, as you are all akin, though for the most part you will breed after your kinds, it may sometimes happen that a golden father would beget a silver son, and that a golden offspring would come from a silver sire, and that the rest would, in like manner, be born of one another. So that the first and chief injunction that the god lays upon the rulers is that of nothing else are they to be such careful guardians, and so intently observant as of the intermixture of these metals in the souls of their offspring, and if sons are born to them with an infusion of brass or iron they shall by no means give way to pity in their treatment of them, but shall assign to each the status due to his nature and thrust them out among the artisans or the farmers. And again, if from these there is born a son with unexpected gold or silver in his composition they shall honor such and bid them go up higher, some to the office of guardian, some to the assistanceship, alleging that there is an oracle that the city shall then be overthrown when the man of iron or brass is its guardian.

Plato's Republic
Wikipedia wrote:[Leo] Strauss noted that thinkers of the first rank, going back to Plato, had raised the problem of whether good and effective politicians could be completely truthful and still achieve the necessary ends of their society. By implication, Strauss asks his readers to consider whether it is true that noble lies have no role at all to play in uniting and guiding the polis. Are myths needed to give people meaning and purpose and to ensure a stable society? Or can men dedicated to relentlessly examining, in Nietzsche's language, those "deadly truths," flourish freely? Thus, is there a limit to the political, and what can be known absolutely? In The City and Man, Strauss discusses the myths outlined in Plato's Republic that are required for all governments. These include a belief that the state's land belongs to it even though it was likely acquired illegitimately and that citizenship is rooted in something more than the accidents of birth. Seymour Hersh also claims that Strauss endorsed noble lies: myths used by political leaders seeking to maintain a cohesive society.[5][6] In The Power of Nightmares, documentary filmmaker Adam Curtis opines that "Strauss believed it was for politicians to assert powerful and inspiring myths that everyone could believe in. They might not be true, but they were necessary illusions. One of these was religion; the other was the myth of the nation."
Are Noble Lies such as Plato, Strauss and Goebbels suggest, an essential commodity for the effective functioning of state and society?



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Re: More news from Plato

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:04 pm

Is Plato still a planet?
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Re: More news from Plato

Post by FBM » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:07 pm

For good or ill, probably so. There are so many citizens who are incapable of dealing effectively with the truth of what goes on at gov't level, I'm not sure it would be possible to maintain a peaceful, prosperous society or economy if broad swaths of it weren't glossed over. And if the masses weren't indoctrinated with patriotism and the related hero-worship at a tender age.
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Re: More news from Plato

Post by FBM » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:08 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Is Plato still a planet?
Zilla, please. This is GSD&P.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

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Re: More news from Plato

Post by Jason » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:24 pm

Are we moving beyond the Platonic stage?

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Re: More news from Plato

Post by FBM » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:22 am

:bump:

The concept of the Noble Lie does seem like an oxymoron until you examine it. The closer I look, the more shades of grey I see.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

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Re: More news from Plato

Post by mistermack » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:42 am

FBM wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Is Plato still a planet?
Zilla, please. This is GSD&P.
FBM, please, this is Rationalia.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

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Re: More news from Plato

Post by FBM » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:47 am

Yeah, and this is why I give up trying to have a serious discussion here. Fuck it.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

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Re: More news from Plato

Post by devogue » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:29 am

mistermack wrote:
FBM wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Is Plato still a planet?
Zilla, please. This is GSD&P.
FBM, please, this is Rationalia.
No, mistermack, FBM is right to call Zilla gently, and Zilla has obviously stepped back.

Sometimes we need reminding, but from the very earliest days of this forum it was agreed that GSD&P were strictly on-topic. Plenty of fuck about posts exist, but things are generally kept focused and on track with gentle moderation.

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Re: More news from Plato

Post by Svartalf » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:58 am

Lies can be well intentioned 'white lies', but can they ever be noble?
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Re: More news from Plato

Post by mistermack » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:37 pm

devogue wrote:
mistermack wrote:
FBM wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Is Plato still a planet?
Zilla, please. This is GSD&P.
FBM, please, this is Rationalia.
No, mistermack, FBM is right to call Zilla gently, and Zilla has obviously stepped back.

Sometimes we need reminding, but from the very earliest days of this forum it was agreed that GSD&P were strictly on-topic. Plenty of fuck about posts exist, but things are generally kept focused and on track with gentle moderation.
Ok, fair enough, but odd.

Jokes allowed on threads about death and murder, but philosopy is too important?
When philosophy IS a joke?
( I'm being serious )
I'm sure a GSD section is good, but why is philosophy lumped with it?
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Re: More news from Plato

Post by Azathoth » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:47 pm

Because philosophers in general, and online philosphers in particular, have to take themselves very seriously. Nobody else will. Wanking with words most of the time.
Outside the ordered universe is that amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes.

Code: Select all

// Replaces with spaces the braces in cases where braces in places cause stasis 
   $str = str_replace(array("\{","\}")," ",$str);

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Re: More news from Plato

Post by mistermack » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:53 pm

Elif air ab dinikh wrote: Wanking with words most of the time.
Link please. I haven't tried that.
Damn. Done it again.
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Re: More news from Plato

Post by Jason » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:33 pm

No, the 'noble lie' is itself a lie thought to be noble by those who believe in the validity of the philosophy of the 'noble lie'. The entire philosophy is an exercise in sophistic circle-jerking reason. The most amusing thing of all is that Plato, who 'recorded' the Socratic dialogues, was one of the greatest sophists of all time. There are no 'noble lies'. There are only lies and damned lies.

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Re: More news from Plato

Post by SteveB » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:35 pm

Pord is back. Where did you fuck off to? :toetap:

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