Guns Used.....cont

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Today I fired a gun for the first time. It was Glock 19 Gen 4 - we rented it at the gun range. 'Zilla says I did really well - all my shots hit the target which was 10 feet away and all but one of them hit the silhouette. Most of my shots were a bit low and to the left, but I'm sure that will change with practice. We brought the target home, pix to follow eventually. I think I'm going to like shooting - but there is no way I'm giving up my Liberal card.

Good on you. I would quite like to fire a pistol at a range (rented, I'd never want to own one, and couldn't in Oz anyway... )

But there aren't many ranges around here...

Come visit and I'll buy you 100 rounds to blast away with.

I'll check for the next available boat...

We could probably scare up some long guns for you as well. The range across the road from the Wolf Center is where the Scouts get their Firearms Safety Merit badge, which is just an excuse to have to trigger time.

[FBM]

To FBM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_suicide_attempt

I quote :

"Some suicide methods have higher rates of failure than others; e.g. wrist-slashing has a much higher failure rate than use of firearms, which has only a 10% failure rate. 75% of all suicide attempts are by the use of drugs, a method that is often thwarted by using nonlethal drugs or nonlethal dosages. These people are found alive 97% of the time."

I don't think any of us can predict with absolute certainty which method most suicidal Americans would turn to if handguns were to suddenly disappear, but my reading of the data suggests hanging. Anyway, that aside, I'm not sure of the value of preventing suicides in the first place. I don't think I would want anyone to prevent me from killing myself if I decided that's what I wanted to do. I wouldn't use drugs to do it because of the failure rate and the probability that the attempt would leave me with permanent damage and a team of people watching over me to make sure I didn't try it again.

[Cormac]

Success is jumping in front of a speeding bus or off a 20+ storey building. Drugs are very often not a successful method.

Possibly because this might stray into the psychological territory of intent and determination. A person who really wants to kill themselves with pills will do so by taking a sufficiently large dose quickly.

Those who are not, or who snap out of that moment of self-destruction might stop taking the pills before they'd taken a sufficiently large dose. Not so easy to do if you chose hanging.

[amused]

To FBM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_suicide_attempt

I quote :

"Some suicide methods have higher rates of failure than others; e.g. wrist-slashing has a much higher failure rate than use of firearms, which has only a 10% failure rate. 75% of all suicide attempts are by the use of drugs, a method that is often thwarted by using nonlethal drugs or nonlethal dosages. These people are found alive 97% of the time."

I don't think any of us can predict with absolute certainty which method most suicidal Americans would turn to if handguns were to suddenly disappear, but my reading of the data suggests hanging. Anyway, that aside, I'm not sure of the value of preventing suicides in the first place. I don't think I would want anyone to prevent me from killing myself if I decided that's what I wanted to do. I wouldn't use drugs to do it because of the failure rate and the probability that the attempt would leave me with permanent damage and a team of people watching over me to make sure I didn't try it again.

I've read that barbituates are the method of choice for those in the medical profession. They have knowledge and access that is superior to that of the rest of us. I'd still choose being torn apart by lions, but it's a bit hard to arrange.

[FBM]

To FBM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_suicide_attempt

I quote :

"Some suicide methods have higher rates of failure than others; e.g. wrist-slashing has a much higher failure rate than use of firearms, which has only a 10% failure rate. 75% of all suicide attempts are by the use of drugs, a method that is often thwarted by using nonlethal drugs or nonlethal dosages. These people are found alive 97% of the time."

I don't think any of us can predict with absolute certainty which method most suicidal Americans would turn to if handguns were to suddenly disappear, but my reading of the data suggests hanging. Anyway, that aside, I'm not sure of the value of preventing suicides in the first place. I don't think I would want anyone to prevent me from killing myself if I decided that's what I wanted to do. I wouldn't use drugs to do it because of the failure rate and the probability that the attempt would leave me with permanent damage and a team of people watching over me to make sure I didn't try it again.

I've read that barbituates are the method of choice for those in the medical profession. They have knowledge and access that is superior to that of the rest of us. I'd still choose being torn apart by lions, but it's a bit hard to arrange.

Y'all don't gots zooz ov' 'ar?

[Blind groper]

A person who really wants to kill themselves with pills will do so by taking a sufficiently large dose quickly.

Which shows you have not done your research. One of the main reasons drugs fail so often is exactly what you just said. If you pile a whole lot of drugs into your stomach, it causes irritation and vomiting. Believe it or not, too many drugs makes it less likely, not more, that you will succeed in killing yourself.

[FBM]

Hanging is a frequently used method of suicide in many countries.1 In England, there are around 2000 hanging suicides per year and it is the most commonly used suicide method. Its popularity as a means of suicide dates back to medieval times at least, when it accounted for around half of all suicides.2 The last 30 years have seen an increase in hanging suicides, particularly amongst young males, in Australia,3 New Zealand,4 and elsewhere. In England, suicide by hanging has increased markedly in males aged <65 years (Figure 1).5,,6 There have also been increases amongst young (aged <45 years) females but rates in older females have been declining since the mid-1980s (Figure 2). Amongst older (>75 years) females in England and Wales, deaths by suffocation using a plastic bag account for around a third of suicides coded as due to hanging, strangulation, or suffocation using the International Classification of Diseases (ICD). In all other age/sex groups hanging accounts for 80–90% of deaths in these categories.

http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/34/2/433.full

[FBM]

Self-poisoning varies as a mode of suicide between the sexes. In a small Newcastle-based study looking at the local coroners’ suicide verdicts the most popular methods of suicide for males of all ages between 1985 and 1994 were hanging> gassing (car exhausts)> self-poisoning with ingestible agents [11]. In females they were self-poisoning with ingestible agents>> jumping from high places> other violent methods, illustrating the consistent gender preferences that exist between males for violent and females for nonviolent methods of suicide.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1884308/

Seems to be a gender split, with female preferring self-poisoning, while males self-hang. Given that males commit suicide at a 4:1 ratio compared to females in at least one US study, if you remove handguns from private US citizens, the number of self-hangings will most likely increase dramatically, since far more males than females choose that option in the first place.

[Blind groper]

To FBM

There are roughly 12,000 hand gun suicides per year in the USA. Hanging are a lot less. If you remove hand guns, will hangings increase by 12,000? I see that as unlikely, since drugs are by far the most popular method of attempting suicide. If those 12,000 people cannot shoot themselves, what will they do? Most of them should try drugs, since that is the popular method. And that means a lot fewer people will die.

[FBM]

To FBM

There are roughly 12,000 hand gun suicides per year in the USA. Hanging are a lot less. If you remove hand guns, will hangings increase by 12,000? I see that as unlikely, since drugs are by far the most popular method of attempting suicide. If those 12,000 people cannot shoot themselves, what will they do? Most of them should try drugs, since that is the popular method. And that means a lot fewer people will die.

Did you not read the literature? What you say may be true for women, but not for men, and men make up the lion's share of suicides (4:1 by one figure I just read). According to the data, men prefer hanging over self-poisoning by a comfortable margin in the first place, and since the greater effectiveness of the former is well known and the availability and convenience of means to self-hang far exceed that of self-poisoning, I can see no reason to predict that the majority of people who decide to commit suicide will choose drugs over hanging. The data just don't support that.

[Blind groper]

FBM

Your statistics are for deaths, not attempts. Even now, in the USA, there are a lot more deaths from hanging than deaths from drugs, but a hell of a lot more attempts with drugs - both male and female, than attempts with hanging. You have made this mistake so often. If you look up statistics and it says "more suicides from hanging" they are talking of actual deaths, not attempts. You need to get the distinction clear.

This distinction is important. As I pointed out before, in the USA there are 220,000 suicide attempts each year, (75% of which are using drugs) but only 20,000 suicide deaths from all causes.

If 12,000 people per year, who currently kill themselves with hand guns, cannot use hand guns, what will they use? Based on the statistics on attempts (note the distinction, attempts, not actual suicides) when they switch from an attempt with hand guns, they will mostly switch to an attempt with drugs, since that is the overwhelmingly most popular method of attempting suicide. Because drugs have such a high failure rate, and because most attempts are not repeated, a high percentage of the 12,000 people who now die from hand guns, will in fact survive.

[FBM]

FBM

Your statistics are for deaths, not attempts. Even now, in the USA, there are a lot more deaths from hanging than deaths from drugs, but a hell of a lot more attempts with drugs - both male and female, than attempts with hanging. You have made this mistake so often. If you look up statistics and it says "more suicides from hanging" they are talking of actual deaths, not attempts. You need to get the distinction clear.

No, you're just dodging inconvenient data. Sorry you're still stuck on this.

This distinction is important. As I pointed out before, in the USA there are 220,000 suicide attempts each year, (75% of which are using drugs) but only 20,000 suicide deaths from all causes.

If 12,000 people per year, who currently kill themselves with hand guns, cannot use hand guns, what will they use? Based on the statistics on attempts (note the distinction, attempts, not actual suicides) when they switch from an attempt with hand guns, they will mostly switch to an attempt with drugs, since that is the overwhelmingly most popular method of attempting suicide. Because drugs have such a high failure rate, and because most attempts are not repeated, a high percentage of the 12,000 people who now die from hand guns, will in fact survive.

Based on the data presented, men are more likely to go from guns to hanging to gassing with car exhaust, then to drug poisoning. Women already prefer drug poisoning, but men outnumber women 4:1 in suicides. You're avoiding a major element: gender.

[laklak]

It's ridiculously easy to get enough drugs to kill yourself, you can buy heroin damn near anywhere. I could get you enough to off yourself in about 15 minutes, for maybe 20 bucks. One big IV bolus and you're gone, done and dusted. Float off on a soft, white opium cloud. That's how I'll do it when it's time to shuffle off the old mortal coil. Much cleaner than a headshot, easier to clean up after. Unless I'm too old and feeble to manage a trip down to MLKing Blvd, in which case I'll do it the Hemming-way.

[Blind groper]

To FBM
I am not ignoring gender. While males are more likely to use a violent method than females (explaining the higher 'success' rate), most still try drugs rather than some other form. Your statistics do not show number of attempts using different methods, but number of deaths.

When you say "guns to hanging to gassing" etc., you are talking of numbers of deaths, because that is what the statistics show. Not attempts. You are starting your doubtful 'logic' with the assumption that 12,000 who will die with hand guns, will also die with some other method. Not good logic.

If 12,000 per year hand gun suicides were not able to use guns, they would go to the most popular method of attempting suicide - or at least 75% would, since 75% of all attempts are that way. Hangings would, of course, increase a little bit. If, for example, there were 12,000 hand gun deaths as number 1, and (to pick a possible number) 4,000 hangings, then with the hand guns gone, the number of hangings would definitely increase. But why should they increase by 12,000, when the would-be suicides have a wide range of methods to try?

No, we would see hangings increase, say from 4,000 to 6,000, and the rest of the people who would have used hand guns will then carry out their attempts using the methods currently most popular, with drugs at number 1. Total suicides would drop almost in half. Hangings would become number 1 for deaths, at 6,000, but drugs would still be the most popular means of attempting suicide.

Most would-be suicides do not ask themselves "what is the most effective means?" If they asked that, no one would try drugs, instead of three quarters of all attempts being with drugs. Instead, they say : "I wanna die. What can I use right now to kill myself?" If there is a hand gun available, they will use it. If not, they will use the easiest alternative, which is usually drugs, since most homes have a medicine drawer with assorted drugs, including many that are left over from previous prescriptions. Since almost the most common ailment prescribed for is depression, and most suicide attempts are with depressives, anti-depression drugs are readily available, and get tried in overdose.

Hanging is not an easy alternative. Both because it requires a lot of effort to set up - something a depressed person is usually not up to - and because it involves a lot of pain and discomfort - which no one is keen on. A depressed person who contemplates suicide wants a method that is quick, easy and painless.

Why do you think jumping from a high place (with 90% 'success') is only 2% of all suicides in the USA while it is over 50% in Hong Kong?
It is because that method is quick and easy in Hong Kong where most people live in high rise apartments, but much more difficult in the USA, where most people have to make a journey to find the right place. A suicide will use whatever is quickest, easiest and least painful. Hand guns are no.1. since so many would-be suicides see that as quick, easy and painless. Hanging is nowhere near as attractive.

To laklak

I believe you about heroin. But it is almost unrepresented in the statistics. So why is that?

[FBM]

I'm not buying the distinction between the number of attempts vs the number of deaths. That distinction has not been made in any of the literature I've discovered, and iirc, you have yet to present any, either.