Guns Used.....cont

[Jason]

Question: What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?

Answer: A gun debate!

[Woodbutcher]

Guns are tools. These people are treating them as religious objects. What a fucking bunch of adolescents. Buy a gun, blow your fucking head off, I really don't care! There are billions more. That's called survival of the fittest. Right now with the advances in medicine we have started to piss in the gene pool anyway, maybe it's time we had a cull and drained some of the pool...

[Blind groper]

That's what happens in countries that don't have handguns; that's what'll happen in the US if you take away handguns. If you refuse to acknowledge this simple fact, you're choosing to live in an illusion.

FBM

Let me say that I much prefer debating with you than with the assorted bunch of idiots here who project their own moronic opinions, and never, never, never bother to actually find out any of the facts. I appreciate your efforts to actually deliver data.

On this point, we agree on the facts. After hand guns, and in most western countries, hanging is the next greatest cause of suicide deaths. In those western countries, where hand guns are not available, hanging tends to be the number one cause of suicide deaths.

Where we disagree is in the deduction as to what would happen to those suicide rates if hand guns were removed from the USA. I think it is more likely that most of those who would presently use hand guns, would try drugs instead, on the basis that this is by far the major method used in attempting suicide. I see no reason why all those people who currently use hand guns should suddenly decide to use a method which right now is a very minor method in terms of numbers of attempts.

In all those other countries, where hanging is the number one cause of suicide deaths, drugs are still the major method used in attempts.

[Blind groper]

Question: What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?

Answer: A gun debate!

Pord

You are becoming quite amazing. That is the third statement in a row that is 100% correct. Well done, Sir.

[FBM]

That's what happens in countries that don't have handguns; that's what'll happen in the US if you take away handguns. If you refuse to acknowledge this simple fact, you're choosing to live in an illusion.

FBM

Let me say that I much prefer debating with you than with the assorted bunch of idiots here who project their own moronic opinions, and never, never, never bother to actually find out any of the facts. I appreciate your efforts to actually deliver data.

On this point, we agree on the facts. After hand guns, and in most western countries, hanging is the next greatest cause of suicide deaths. In those western countries, where hand guns are not available, hanging tends to be the number one cause of suicide deaths.

Where we disagree is in the deduction as to what would happen to those suicide rates if hand guns were removed from the USA. I think it is more likely that most of those who would presently use hand guns, would try drugs instead, on the basis that this is by far the major method used in attempting suicide. I see no reason why all those people who currently use hand guns should suddenly decide to use a method which right now is a very minor method in terms of numbers of attempts.

In all those other countries, where hanging is the number one cause of suicide deaths, drugs are still the major method used in attempts.

First of all, I also value the fact that you present data and are not committed to knee-jerk emotive responses. I do disagree with how you interpret that data sometimes, of course, and I think at least part of that may stem from the fact that I grew up in the US and know from deep inside the gun culture what sort of thinking goes on there.

Drugs are harder to get than rope, especially lethal ones in lethal amounts (doctors try not to prescribe lethal amounts in one bottle these days), especially in rural and impoverished areas where most handgun suicides occur. Rope and rope-like materials are quick and easy to find. To get a lethal dose of drugs in those areas requires (usually) some amount of cunning and planning, which rules out the impulsive element you mentioned earlier. It also (usually) requires an amount of money that may not be immediately available to those in said impoverished areas and homes. On the farm, so to speak, you can quickly and easily find a rope and a place high enough to hang yourself from.

[Blind groper]

FBM

As you say, I lack some of that gut level emotional understanding of gun culture. That is why an outside viewpoint may be valuable. Cut out the emotion, and some sense can flow through.

Anyway, on drugs. As I understand it, most attempts at suicide with drugs make use of what drugs are already available. A lot of homes have quite large stocks of assorted drugs, accumulated over a long period of time. When a person gets that urge to suicide, he or she grabs those drugs and downs them. One reason they are so ineffective may be simply that the miscellaneous mixture is just not lethal enough. I know of another reason, but I am not prepared to write it down, since that would amount to give advice on how to commit suicide.

Whatever the reason, an estimated 75% of all suicide attempts are with drugs. It is about the least likely to succeed, fortunately. Otherwise the 220,000 attempts per year might result in a lot more deaths.

[Svartalf]

Yes, you are correct about the link with gang membership. The age group and being male means most involved in violent actions. This includes violence as gang members and violence without being gang members. Fewer people in that age group means less violence overall.

So how about we prohibit persons under the age of 21 from possessing handguns....oh wait...we DO!

Yeah, that's real effective.

About as effective as prohibiting them from drinking alcohol laden beverages.

[Svartalf]

Yes, you are correct about the link with gang membership. The age group and being male means most involved in violent actions. This includes violence as gang members and violence without being gang members. Fewer people in that age group means less violence overall.

So how about we prohibit persons under the age of 21 from possessing handguns....oh wait...we DO!

Yeah, that's real effective.

Precisely. Prohibition never works. That's my point.

That's why strict regulations are needed.

education works better.

[Kristie]

education works better.

Educate who and of what?

[Svartalf]

education works better.

Educate who and of what?

educate the kids about gun safety and responsibility, so when they turn, say, 18, they know better than 'borrow' guns, or buy saturday night specials on the black market and do stupid things with them (gangers will anyway, but they are criminals)

[Kristie]

education works better.

Educate who and of what?

educate the kids about gun safety and responsibility, so when they turn, say, 18, they know better than 'borrow' guns, or buy saturday night specials on the black market and do stupid things with them (gangers will anyway, but they are criminals)

Sounds plausible.

[Blind groper]

The number of times people have decided to solve problems through 'education' and later found it did absolutely nothing.....

Teenagers do not listen to moral arguments. They are in the rebellious stage. Later on, when they are adults, they may wake up and realise that what they were told was correct, but in the mean time they ignore instruction.

However, it probably cannot do any harm. Not much good either, but what the hell....

[FBM]

FBM

As you say, I lack some of that gut level emotional understanding of gun culture. That is why an outside viewpoint may be valuable. Cut out the emotion, and some sense can flow through.

Anyway, on drugs. As I understand it, most attempts at suicide with drugs make use of what drugs are already available. A lot of homes have quite large stocks of assorted drugs, accumulated over a long period of time. When a person gets that urge to suicide, he or she grabs those drugs and downs them. One reason they are so ineffective may be simply that the miscellaneous mixture is just not lethal enough. I know of another reason, but I am not prepared to write it down, since that would amount to give advice on how to commit suicide.

Whatever the reason, an estimated 75% of all suicide attempts are with drugs. It is about the least likely to succeed, fortunately. Otherwise the 220,000 attempts per year might result in a lot more deaths.

What part of

A 2008 review of 56 countries based on World Health Organization mortality data found that hanging was the most common method in most of the countries,[6] accounting for 53 percent of the male suicides and 39 percent of the female suicides.[7] In England and Wales, hanging is the most commonly used method, and is particularly prevalent in the group of males aged 15–44, comprising almost half of the suicides in the group. It is the second most common method among women, behind poisoning.

did you miss? Hanging is more common than poisoning in 56 countries, England and Wales.

You say, "A lot of homes have quite large stocks of assorted drugs..." Aside from being a flimsy and unsupported assertion, it ignores the fact that those "large stocks of assorted drugs" include hemorrhoid cream and aspirin, neither of which would be chosen by someone who was serious about killing themselves. Very few doctors prescribe potentially lethal drugs in quantities required for suicide; they've learned their lesson. Ask Ayaan, it's her chosen field. Only in a small number of exceptional cases would a suicidal person be able to collect a lethal dose of anything on the spur of the moment, especially in rural and impoverished homes, where suicide is more prevalent. Suicidal people in such homes can easily, quickly and cheaply acquire either rope or rope-like materials.

If what you say were true, then people in those 56 countries, Enland and Wales would choose poisoning more often, but they don't. Hanging is the #1 method in those countries, according to the World Health Organization's stats. Unless you know of something unique about the American mindset that sets them apart in abhorring hanging as a means of cheap, easy and effective suicide, I don't see where you have a leg to stand on with this argument. The data don't support it. The data support the strong probability that suicidal Americans will solve the problem in the same way as most of the rest of the world does: hanging. Which is very nearly as effective as shooting oneself with a handgun. You're not going to save a signficant number of lives by banning private ownership of handguns in America. To the contrary, you'd start a prolonged series of shootouts. The number of deaths from that would far overshadow the few that might hypothetically be saved if American handguns were to all magically vanish into thin air. It's a dead proposition.

[Svartalf]

The number of times people have decided to solve problems through 'education' and later found it did absolutely nothing.....

Teenagers do not listen to moral arguments. They are in the rebellious stage. Later on, when they are adults, they may wake up and realise that what they were told was correct, but in the mean time they ignore instruction.

However, it probably cannot do any harm. Not much good either, but what the hell....

restricting access to weaponry doesn't solve anything either, except for states that want a defenceless populace.

[Blind groper]

To FBM

You disappoint me. You are getting deaths and attempts mixed up again. Sure hanging is the most common source of suicide deaths in all those nations. But drugs are the most common form of suicide attempts.

The fact that drug overdoses often use less than lethal materials is probably a major reason why drugs are such an unsuccessful method. Americans are no different in mind set to the other countries, as far as I know, which implies that, in the absence of hand guns, they would use the same method of attempting suicide - ie. drugs. Only a minority of attempts are by hanging, even if that minority leads to more actual deaths.