Guns Used.....cont

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Gallstones » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:38 am

amused wrote:Image
Go read some other thread.
The rest of us don't care that you are bored.
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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Gallstones » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:39 am

Blind groper wrote:
Gallstones wrote:
You are afraid of the reality.
You hide behind statistics and studies thinking you are safe.
Gallstones.
This does not even make sense.
Yes it does.
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by amused » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:43 am

Gallstones wrote:
amused wrote:Image
Go read some other thread.
The rest of us don't care that you are bored.
Image

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Seth » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:03 am

Blind groper wrote: The reason for this drop in murder rates globally (including Virginia) is the fact that the population is aging. Most murders are carried out by males between 16 and 30 years of age. That portion of the population is dropping as a percentage of the total, and the murder rate is dropping with it. If Virginia alone saw a drop in murder rate, we might try to make something of it. but Virginia is no different to the rest of the west.
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny:

What a laff riot you are.
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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Gallstones » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:55 am

amused wrote:
Gallstones wrote:
amused wrote:Image
Go read some other thread.
The rest of us don't care that you are bored.
Image
Aren't you clever for posting a gif.
If you bothered to put together anything articulate you might actually be convincing.
Non-content post turds don't quite measure up though, do they?
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Jason » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:46 am

amused wrote:Image

Glock Glock

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Jason » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:49 am

Seth wrote:
Blind groper wrote: The reason for this drop in murder rates globally (including Virginia) is the fact that the population is aging. Most murders are carried out by males between 16 and 30 years of age. That portion of the population is dropping as a percentage of the total, and the murder rate is dropping with it. If Virginia alone saw a drop in murder rate, we might try to make something of it. but Virginia is no different to the rest of the west.
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny:

What a laff riot you are.
Isn't 16-30 the exact age group of the majority of gang members and violent offenders? Correlation? Causation? Fewer gangbangers = fewer murders? hmm..

Dunno. Glock Glock.

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Blind groper » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:39 am

FBM wrote:However, you extrapolate from that and conjecture that those who suceed at killing themselves would have later felt the same way, had they survived. The data don't suggest this. You suggest this.
No.

I have not said that.
What I said was that most suicide attempts are not repeated. I also said that 90% of those who attempt suicide with hand guns succeed (the other 10% are seriously maimed). I said that those who attempt suicide with hand guns do not get a second chance. I did not say that those who killed themselves with hand guns would have felt any particular way. Nor would I say anything as silly as that. When you are dead you don't feel anything at all!

To Gallstones.

I am happy for you that your teenage son is unlikely to shoot himself. Not all parents of teenagers can say that.

To Pord.

Yes, you are correct about the link with gang membership. The age group and being male means most involved in violent actions. This includes violence as gang members and violence without being gang members. Fewer people in that age group means less violence overall.
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by FBM » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:51 am

Blind groper wrote:
FBM wrote:However, you extrapolate from that and conjecture that those who suceed at killing themselves would have later felt the same way, had they survived. The data don't suggest this. You suggest this.
No.

I have not said that.
What I said was that most suicide attempts are not repeated. I also said that 90% of those who attempt suicide with hand guns succeed (the other 10% are seriously maimed). I said that those who attempt suicide with hand guns do not get a second chance. I did not say that those who killed themselves with hand guns would have felt any particular way. Nor would I say anything as silly as that. When you are dead you don't feel anything at all!
And 89.5% of those who choose hanging are successful. So logically speaking, we have just as much reason to tightly regulate/ban rope as we do handguns. I'm sure there's not much death by hanging in homes that don't have rope or materials that can be fashioned to function as such. :biggrin:
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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Blind groper » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:05 am

As I recall, FBM, that 89% figure was the top end of several estimates.

But more to the point, hanging is less popular than hand guns, as shown by the statistics for deaths. We may ask why. I do not know for sure, but the logical reason is that hanging is more elaborate, and requires more determination to set up.

As I pointed out earlier, suicide is going against the most powerful motivator of all - the fear of death. It is not easy. But it is easier if the method used is quick and simple, like a hand gun. To use a method like jumping off a high place is more difficult since it requires effort to get to such a place.

There is a second reason also. Remember that the main motive for suicide is depression, coupled with a temporary urge to suicide. Depression is also characterised by a deep lethargy, making any real effort difficult. I know there are people on this forum who have had bouts of depression, and I am sure they will confirm the difficulty, when very depressed, of doing much at all. Anything that requires effort and determination is very likely simply not going to happen.

However, for a depressed person to pick up a hand gun, put it to his head, and pull the trigger, requires very little effort at all, and is thus more likely to happen to a very depressed person than something requiring effort and determination like hanging.

Now, I do not know that this is the reason, though it seems very likely. What I do know is that, in the USA, hanging is very much a secondary cause of suicide, even though ropes are even more available than hand guns.

And, FBM, I am aware of the sarcasm in your message about banning ropes. Obviously, that cannot be done. But it is much less of a problem anyway. The suicide weapon of choice in the USA, for the reasons I give above, or whatever, is the hand gun.
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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by FBM » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:09 am

IIRC, the hanging stat may have come from the WHO. I kinda forget. Anyway, the point is that it's very nearly as effective as handguns, and it's the most popular means of suicide in countries where handguns aren't available, IIRC. Take away handguns from Americans, what reason is there to think that contrary to the worldwide stats, Americans wouldn't just turn to the rope, like most of the rest of the world? Are we some sort of psychologically alien population? :dunno:
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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Blind groper » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:45 am

To FBM

That 'logic' is suspect.

Remember that hand guns are not the preferred way of trying suicide. Just the most successful way. The preferred way is drugs. Then cutting. Then hand guns. Then hanging.

This would imply that, if hand guns were not available, the preferred alternative would be drugs, not hanging.
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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by FBM » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:07 am

Busy with checking homework, so I'll have to resort to Wiki:
According to Anton J. L. van Hooff, hanging was the most common suicide method in primitive and pre-industrial societies.[5] A 2008 review of 56 countries based on World Health Organization mortality data found that hanging was the most common method in most of the countries,[6] accounting for 53 percent of the male suicides and 39 percent of the female suicides.[7] In England and Wales, hanging is the most commonly used method, and is particularly prevalent in the group of males aged 15–44, comprising almost half of the suicides in the group. It is the second most common method among women, behind poisoning. In 1981 hanging accounted for 23.5 percent of male suicides, and by 2001 the figure had risen to 44.2 percent.[2] The proportion of hangings as suicides in 2005 among women aged 15–34 was 47.2 percent, having risen from 5.7 percent in 1968.[8] In the United States it is the second most common method, behind firearms,[9] and is by far the most common method for those in psychiatric wards and hospitals.[10] Hanging accounts for a greater percentage of suicides among younger Americans than among older ones.[11] Differences exist among ethnic groups; research suggests that hanging is the most common method among Chinese and Japanese Americans.[12] Hanging is also a frequently used method for those in custody, in several countries.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_hanging
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by Jason » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:10 am

Image

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Re: Guns Used.....cont

Post by FBM » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:11 am

Pretty soon, staff are going to consider re-posting that image as spamming the thread. :toetap:
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

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