Guns Used.....cont

[Seth]

No, I think he was agreeing with the regulation.

Seth seems to agree with some regulation. However, Gallstones' "why" was in response to your specifically advocating "strong" regulation, which Seth has given no indication of agreeing with.

Do you think refusing guns to the diagnosed mentally insane is sufficiently strong regulation?

Denial is broader than this.

Being under an order of protection.
Having been arrested and/or adjudicated as guilty for domestic abuse.
Less than honorable discharge from the military.
Use of, and/or dependency on controlled substances or dependency on alcohol.
Having been involuntarily incarcerated for a mental illness.
Being a convicted felon.
Not a citizen or legal alien of the US.

For example.

None of which apply to private sellers or (at least in the South) to long guns, so the millions of firearms that already exist unregistered would be impossible to locate and confiscate, if, as Bling groper suggests, the US gummit were to abandon all pretence of democracy and go all gestapo on us. There would be gun battles for decades. Proposing that the gummit forcefully confiscate all handguns from private citizens, despite public opinion to the contrary? No. Just no.

True in part. All of the prohibitions above apply to everyone in the US, whether they buy from a licensed dealer or not. Shove your wife onto the couch and get convicted of misdemeanor "domestic violence" and you're forever barred from possessing so much as a single round of ammunition. Get depressed and get sent for a 72 hour mental hold by the police and you're forever barred from possessing a gun, even if you are treated, recover and never have another incident of depression. Piss your girlfriend off by yelling at her, causing her to lie and get a restraining order, lose your right to own a gun perhaps forever if the order is made permanent, even if you move to the other end of the country and never see her again.

You're right about the futility of trying to confiscate guns and the inevitable result: lots of dead policemen and federal agents.

I've advocated that gun owners should get together informally with other gun owners with the same kinds of weapons and swap them around to foil the BATFE tracing/defacto registration scheme.

Me, I've been buying all my "assault weapons" off paper, from private parties, for exactly that reason.

[Seth]

No, I think he was agreeing with the regulation.

Seth seems to agree with some regulation. However, Gallstones' "why" was in response to your specifically advocating "strong" regulation, which Seth has given no indication of agreeing with.

Do you think refusing guns to the diagnosed mentally insane is sufficiently strong regulation?

Denial is broader than this.

Being under an order of protection.
Having been arrested and/or adjudicated as guilty for domestic abuse.
Less than honorable discharge from the military.
Use of, and/or dependency on controlled substances or dependency on alcohol.
Having been involuntarily incarcerated for a mental illness.
Being a convicted felon.
Not a citizen or legal alien of the US.

For example.

None of which apply to private sellers or (at least in the South) to long guns, so the millions of firearms that already exist unregistered would be impossible to locate and confiscate, if, as Bling groper suggests, the US gummit were to abandon all pretence of democracy and go all gestapo on us. There would be gun battles for decades. Proposing that the gummit forcefully confiscate all handguns from private citizens, despite public opinion to the contrary? No. Just no.

Yes, true. Private sales can go between anyone.

Nope. It's a federal felony to even TRANSFER (loan, gift, sell, etc.) a gun to someone you know, or reasonably should have known is disqualified by any of the above criteria.

And whether or not you must get a NICS check for a private sale depends entirely on where you are.

In Colorado, private transfers are allowed without a NICS check...UNLESS the original display or examination of the firearm by the buyer took place at a gun show. Any transaction that originates at a gun show must get a NICS check, even if the transfer takes place years later. This was put in place to "close the gunshow loophole" and prevent trades and sales in the parking lot or arranged at the gun show to take place later in order to avoid the NICS check.

One guy I know doesn't bring his guns to the show, he brings photos, and then makes the sale off-premises later. Because the gun was not displayed at a "gun show" the gun show restrictions do not apply. In Colorado ""Gun show" means the entire premises provided for an event or function, including but not limited to parking areas for the event or function, that is sponsored to facilitate, in whole or in part, the purchase, sale, offer for sale, or collection of firearms at which:

(a) twenty-five or more firearms are offered or exhibited for sale, transfer, or exchange; or

(b) not less than three gun show vendors exhibit, sell, offer for sale, transfer, or exchange firearms.)

[Seth]

FBM

Let us leave aside the question of how the problem gets solved. As I said before, that really requires another thread. I could offer suggestions, but this thread is too damn complicated already.

Horseshit. There's no point in discussing a "problem" (which isn't a "gun problem" it's a "suicidal person" problem) if there is no solution to it.

No, all those people who currently shoot themselves with hand guns will not just decide to hang themselves instead.

Speculation.

This is an impulsive action.

Not as you seem to characterize it. People don't just suddenly and for no apparent reason "impulsively" decide to commit suicide. It's a long, drawn-out, painful process of making a decision not to live and then figuring out how to end your life.

The presence of a hand gun is a major factor deciding that impulse.

So what? So is the presence of rope, drugs, or tall buildings, none of which you propose to ban.

Hanging requires a bit more determination. It also takes a lot longer, meaning the impulse will pass for a good percentage of the affected people.

You don't know anything about suicidal thinking. Nothing.

For a depressed person who suddenly decides to commit suicide, the fact that a hand gun and ammunition is available is a big factor in both the decision and the implementation of that decision.

Bullshit. You don't know anything about what a depressed person is thinking when they opt for suicide. It's NOT AN IMPULSE, it's a long, agonizing decision that sometimes takes years or decades to fully develop. People who use handguns, or hang themselves WANT TO DIE. You're mistaking the impulsive teenage "cry for help" that normally involves drugs for the determined suicide who chooses a method with no out, like jumping off a building or in front of a bus, or shooting himself.

Killing yourself is something that is not easy. To do it requires overcoming billions of years of evolution driving the instinct to survive. Most of the time, we simply cannot do it. A weak moment in the life of a person who is probably depressed leads to a suicide impulse. If a hand gun is readily available, then we have a tragedy. If no easy method is readily available, the death will probably not happen.

You are SO full of shit.

[laklak]

My only direct experience with suicide was my father. He used a handgun, after what appears in retrospect to be months of preparation. Had he not had a handgun he would have used pills, hanging, car exhaust or any number of other methods. I have no doubt that some suicides are spur of the moment and that had a handgun not been available might not have occurred. But that's a lot of "appears" and "might haves" to justify taking away MY rights to own a handgun.

As for confiscation, good luck with that. I own one gun that has any paperwork behind it. Every other one was a private sale or came down through the family and I defy them to find them all. I'm considering another "legal" purchase, maybe a single shot .22, just so I can hand something in when they knock on the door.

[Blind groper]

Let me say to those people who think my posts are all speculation, that is not true.

The data I present is the result of many years research by reputable university researchers. For example : the fact that suicide are impulsive, and mostly survivors of suicide attempts do not try again, are also the results from detailed research work that involves interviewing hundreds of suicide survivors.
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/359/10/989

There are 220,000 suicide attempts (varies a bit from year to year) per year in the USA, and 20,000 suicide deaths. That figure alone tells you that suicide attempts are not repeated very much. If all those 220,000 people were truly determined, American would have 220,000 suicide deaths each year. The percentage of attempts with hand guns varies a bit year to year also, and I have used a rough average of 50% hand gun. But some years it is a bit more and some years a bit less.

The most common suicide method is drugs, at 75%. Hand guns are a very small percentage of all attempts, but still make up 50% of suicide deaths. That is because hand guns are so damn lethal.

The best way of controlling hand guns is another argument, of course. It may be that trying to get them all removed will not be practical at this time. Dr. David Hemenway suggested the first piece of legislation should be to child-proof every hand gun in the USA. Apparently the technology to do this is readily available. That would not reduce suicides by much, but is a good start.

I would personally suggest that a second piece of legislation is that every privately owned gun should be locked in a police approved (as close to burglar proof as is practically possible) safe, with a combination, not a key. This would immediately cut impulsive murders and suicides drastically. It would reduce the flow of illegal guns to the criminal community also.

My thanks to FBM who dug out data showing that suicides, state by state, are correlated with gun ownership. I have actually presented that information before, though a long time ago. When I did, it was rejected by the gun enthusiasts who told me it was a lie. Perhaps from FBM they might accept the data a little better.

[Kristie]

My old best friend from high school tried to kill herself a couple times, luckily she failed. I've only known of a couple people that were successful, one from hanging, one from a gun. Working in a hospital for a few years, I did see some of the same people over and over again for 'attempted suicide' on suicide watch. Not sure what that says, but it seems to me, a lot of 'attempts' are cries for help.

[Jason]

I've got a Tasco 3-9x scope for my .22 magnum that refuses to hold a zero. Are Tasco scopes the shittiest scopes on the face of the planet?

[mozg]

None of which apply to private sellers or (at least in the South) to long guns, so the millions of firearms that already exist unregistered would be impossible to locate and confiscate, if, as Bling groper suggests, the US gummit were to abandon all pretence of democracy and go all gestapo on us. There would be gun battles for decades. Proposing that the gummit forcefully confiscate all handguns from private citizens, despite public opinion to the contrary? No. Just no.

Yes, true. Private sales can go between anyone.

Not exactly.

A prohibited person is still a prohibited person even if the private seller of a firearm is not required by federal or state law to perform the instant check based upon the BATFE 4473, and it is required that the sale be between a buyer and a seller who reside in the same state. Sales across state lines must involve an FFL to effect the transfer - a long gun by an FFL in any state, and a handgun by an FFL in the buyer's state of residence.

It is a federal felony to knowingly transfer a firearm to a prohibited person and can land one in federal prison for 15 years for a single offense. This includes handing one to a prohibited person for any reason and any duration of time. Let them touch it? Federal felony. Leave it in the car with them while you run into a store and buy a soda? Constructive possession constitutes a transfer and you can go to prison. In your home and you live with a prohibited person? Federal felony, unless you lock that firearm and all of the ammunition in a safe that only you can open.

Also the prohibited person status is for people convicted of felonies and 'any other crime' which carries a maximum penalty of more than one year in prison, even if the convicted individual received a lesser sentence, so it includes lots of misdemeanors as well.

Those are just the federal regulations. There are state regulations as well, which may be more strict. In some states a misdemeanor conviction for possession of drugs/paraphenalia is always prohibiting even if the maximum penalty is less than a year. Pennsylvania is an example of such a state.

For all the people clamoring for 'stronger' regulation, they sure as fuck don't know what the regulations already are.

And seriously, less than honorable discharge? Medical discharge? Not saying you're wrong, but it seems unreasonable.

Not sure about Medical. Not remembering the exact wording right now.
It might say "Dishonorable" specifically.

It's question 11g on form 4473 from the BATFE and it reads 'Have you been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?" [bold in original]

Form 4473, PDF so that you all can see what questions are asked.

[Seth]

Let me say to those people who think my posts are all speculation, that is not true.

ITS ALL SPECULATION!

I would personally suggest that a second piece of legislation is that every privately owned gun should be locked in a police approved (as close to burglar proof as is practically possible) safe, with a combination, not a key. This would immediately cut impulsive murders and suicides drastically.

And it would render the handgun useless for its intended purpose: immediate self-defense. There are plenty of gun safes out there that will keep them out of the hands of children while still allowing immediate access, as I pointed out before, and that's always a good idea. But anyone with the code who is authorized to use the weapon must have immediate access to it. If they decide to shoot themselves with it, oh well, too bad, so sad. It's their right and their life, and it's none of YOUR business.

It would reduce the flow of illegal guns to the criminal community also.

At what cost.

My thanks to FBM who dug out data showing that suicides, state by state, are correlated with gun ownership.

Correlation is not causation, so that data is worthless as far as justifying your argument. You have not proven that readily available handguns CAUSE suicide. They don't, any more than rope, tall buildings or trains do.

[Seth]

I've got a Tasco 3-9x scope for my .22 magnum that refuses to hold a zero. Are Tasco scopes the shittiest scopes on the face of the planet?

Yes.

[Seth]

As gun ownership has increased dramatically, gun-related violent crimes have gradually decreased over the past six years in the state of Virginia, according to a new analysis.

From 2006 to 2011, the total number of guns purchased in Virginia increased 73 percent, while the total number of gun-related violent crimes decreased 24 percent over that period. And when adjusted for population growth, the number of crimes further decreases to more than 27 percent, with 79 gun-related offenses per 100,000 in 2006 dropping to 57 by 2011.

Virginia Commonwealth University professor Thomas R. Baker conducted the analysis at the request of the Richmond Times-Dispatch. Baker told the paper that the findings appear to contradict the popular premise that more guns cause more violent crime.

“While there is a wealth of academic literature attempting to demonstrate the relationship between guns and crime, a very simple and intuitive demonstration of the numbers seems to point away from the premise that more guns leads to more crime, at least in Virginia,” said Baker.

Baker examined data from the Virginia Firearms Transaction Center, which tracks the number of gun transactions for every federally licensed Virginia firearm dealer, to state crime data from 2006 to 2011. That data demonstrated that an increase in gun purchases one year was often followed by a decrease in gun crime the next year.

“So the only thing it could be is that more guns are causing less crime,” Baker concluded, noting that the data is “pretty overwhelming.”

Additionally, this trend held true when comparing purchases of all types of firearms, including pistols, revolvers, shotguns and rifles, to gun crime during that period.

The number of gun purchases in the state rose to a record-breaking 420,829 purchases last year, according to gun-dealer transaction data.

Baker believes guns become a political issue because criminals use them and the notion that guns cause crime is “persuasive.” But he notes those individuals focus on the wrong component.

“Instead of trying to figure out why are these people committing crimes — and using the most effective tool to commit those crimes — they focus on the tool,” he continued. “So the gun is causing the crime.”



Read more

[Gallstones]

Minnesota man charged with murder for shooting intruders

LITTLE FALLS, Minn. (AP) — A Minnesota man charged with murder in the shootings of two teenagers he said broke into his home told investigators he was angered by one of the wounded teens who mocked him when his rifle jammed but that he fired more shots than necessary.
....
Smith was charged with two counts of second-degree murder in the deaths of Haile Kifer, 18, and her cousin, Nicholas Schaeffel, 17, both of Little Falls. The teens were shot on Thanksgiving Day, but their deaths weren't reported until Friday.

the rest of the story

[Jason]

How about NCStar? They bought Tasco right? They offer a lot of inexpensive stuff. Is it complete shite?

[Kristie]

Yeah, that's murder.

[Seth]

Minnesota man charged with murder for shooting intruders

LITTLE FALLS, Minn. (AP) — A Minnesota man charged with murder in the shootings of two teenagers he said broke into his home told investigators he was angered by one of the wounded teens who mocked him when his rifle jammed but that he fired more shots than necessary.
....
Smith was charged with two counts of second-degree murder in the deaths of Haile Kifer, 18, and her cousin, Nicholas Schaeffel, 17, both of Little Falls. The teens were shot on Thanksgiving Day, but their deaths weren't reported until Friday.

the rest of the story

Yup, don't want to shoot them again after they are rendered incapable of continuing the conduct that justified shooting them in the first place.

Which is why two to the chest and one to the head is an automatic response to a deadly threat. It's over in less than a second.

Of course, he hasn't been convicted yet either, and might well get off.