Guns Used.....cont

[FBM]

You're not going to put a dent in the suicide rate by removing one method. You're just going to make them find another method.

No, I do not agree.
The number of hand guns will not change the number of impulses to suicide. It just changes the number of suicides that result in death.

What's your data on that? How is it that NZ and a lot of other countries have higher successful suicide rates than the US, despite having no handguns? You just haven't made this case.

[FBM]

I read that most successful suicides in NZ are by hanging. Got a plan for that?

I think I told you that.
I wish I did have a plan. Any ideas?

it is much easier to make hand guns less available than to make the ingredients for hanging less available. Prisoners use bed sheets. How the hell do you stop that? Seriously, I would like to know.

No, it wouldn't be easier in the US. It would cause a lot of bloodshed. You'd have to declare a police state and go house-to-house. That's the political reality in the US that foreigners don't seem to be able or willing to comprehend. It's the reality in the States. I know; I grew up there.

And yes, people can improvise hanging materials. So can people improvise gun-making materials. People in prison make zip-guns.

Maybe NZ should start by banning rope or rope-like materials. Or maybe start with strict rope-control laws and progressively tighten down on them. Require rope registration, psychological background checks for suicidal ideation, require rope-carry permits. Any house with children must keep their ropes locked up. Anyone caught fashioning a makeshift rope goes straight to federal prison, no exceptions, etc etc. THAT would be easier than removing all the handguns from the US, and less bloody. But no less silly to propose.

[Woodbutcher]

I read that most successful suicides in NZ are by hanging. Got a plan for that?

I think I told you that.
I wish I did have a plan. Any ideas?

it is much easier to make hand guns less available than to make the ingredients for hanging less available. Prisoners use bed sheets. How the hell do you stop that? Seriously, I would like to know.

No, it wouldn't be easier in the US. It would cause a lot of bloodshed. You'd have to declare a police state and go house-to-house. That's the political reality in the US that foreigners don't seem to be able or willing to comprehend. It's the reality in the States. I know; I grew up there.

And yes, people can improvise hanging materials. So can people improvise gun-making materials. People in prison make zip-guns.

Maybe NZ should start by banning rope or rope-like materials. Or maybe start with strict rope-control laws and progressively tighten down on them. Require rope registration, psychological background checks for suicidal ideation, require rope-carry permits. Any house with children must keep their ropes locked up. Anyone caught fashioning a makeshift rope goes straight to federal prison, no exceptions, etc etc. THAT would be easier than removing all the handguns from the US, and less bloody. But no less silly to propose.

[Kristie]

I read that most successful suicides in NZ are by hanging. Got a plan for that?

I think I told you that.
I wish I did have a plan. Any ideas?

it is much easier to make hand guns less available than to make the ingredients for hanging less available. Prisoners use bed sheets. How the hell do you stop that? Seriously, I would like to know.

No, it wouldn't be easier in the US. It would cause a lot of bloodshed. You'd have to declare a police state and go house-to-house. That's the political reality in the US that foreigners don't seem to be able or willing to comprehend. It's the reality in the States. I know; I grew up there.

And yes, people can improvise hanging materials. So can people improvise gun-making materials. People in prison make zip-guns.

Maybe NZ should start by banning rope or rope-like materials. Or maybe start with strict rope-control laws and progressively tighten down on them. Require rope registration, psychological background checks for suicidal ideation, require rope-carry permits. Any house with children must keep their ropes locked up. Anyone caught fashioning a makeshift rope goes straight to federal prison, no exceptions, etc etc. THAT would be easier than removing all the handguns from the US, and less bloody. But no less silly to propose.

Since the sole purpose of a gun is to harm or kill, I call bs on this analogy.

[Blind groper]

FBM

The method of testing would be to measure suicide attempts. If you had, say, 220,000 attempts in the USA each year, and 20,000 suicide deaths, (those figures are from a professional estimate) then you could say there were 0.075% of the population attempting each year. Of which 9% result in death.

Now if you compare the attempts per capita and percentage of attempts that end in death with Japan, say, you might get some real data.

Japan has one of the developed world's highest rate of suicide, and it appears to be because suicide is a common consequence of losing a job. Here in NZ and in the USA, that would be unusual. The high rate would be even higher if hand guns were available, since most suicide attempts actually fail. The most successful method used in Japan is throwing oneself in front of a train. This has a 'success' rate similar to hand guns. It is so common in Japan that the train companies bill the relatives of suicides for damages.

Incidentally, you mentioned hanging as the most common successful suicide form in NZ. Did you know that it was the second highest in the USA? It is probable, that if hand guns were not available, that hanging would then become the no. 1 American method. The single most common method of attempting suicide, though, is drugs, at 75% of all attempts, though only 2 to 3% of those attempts succeed.

[Blind groper]

Maybe NZ should start by banning rope or rope-like materials. Or maybe start with strict rope-control laws and progressively tighten down on them. Require rope registration, psychological background checks for suicidal ideation, require rope-carry permits. Any house with children must keep their ropes locked up. Anyone caught fashioning a makeshift rope goes straight to federal prison, no exceptions, etc etc. THAT would be easier than removing all the handguns from the US, and less bloody. But no less silly to propose.

Amusing.

[Woodbutcher]

Removing handguns from Americans would be like trying to remove knives from Sikhs or Gurkhas. They all would react with religious fervor at that and go into a jihad against the oppressors....

[Seth]

I'll refrain from trusting you or anyone else to secure my safety, thanks.

Wrong answer.

We are human. Or at least I am.

So what? Jeffery Dahmer, Josef Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, and Adolph Hitler were humans.

Humans are social animals. Our success in evolutionary terms relies upon two things. Technology and social cooperation. The major flaw in survivalist's philosophies is that they are mostly solitary.

You might think so (wrongly) but the truth is that they are very social and depend on other Lima Mike India individuals to rebuild society after the collapse and orgy of deadly violence and starvation. It's just that we prefer to associate with those who are able to survive such events because they are naturally smarter and better adapted, genetically speaking. Just because we don't want to be social with Darwinian dead-ends like you doesn't mean we're anti-social.

Being non social is actually a recipe for failure. Humans work together, and in that cooperation lies the secret to success. Without being part of a social group, and gaining the benefits of social cooperation, individuals will be removed from the gene pool.

A good many individuals who depend on the "social group" to take care of them are going to be eliminated from the gene pool when things go south. Not me.

The best way to control criminal behaviour, as history shows, is to have an effective social method of controlling it.

Lovely utopian ideal there. However, Utopia doesn't, has never, and never will exist.

In our communities, that translates into a professional and effective police force, and a community that helps each other.

Which fails to explain your crime rate, murder rate and suicide rate. Seems there are some flaws in your utopia. You should really reflect on the reason why "crime" exists and why police are primarily investigative organizations. In the absence of a "Pre-Crime Unit" you see, the police are almost always a reactive agency who show up long after the crime has been committed. Which is fine with me because I don't want to live in a society where the police are ubiquitous enough to stop every crime before it happens. That's what we call a "police state" and universally police states BECOME the criminals because their power is unchecked, something you'll one day likely come to understand.

So thank you very much, but as a rational person who is aware of what has worked in the past, and what has failed miserably, I will use social cooperation to provide for my security. A measure that works 1,000 times better than individual paranoia.

Fine by me. All that means though is that at the narrow passage, when "social cooperation" has abandoned you and it's between you and some murderous thug in the dark, you will be eliminated from the gene pool. Trust me, the world will be a better place for it, we have enough idiots and cowards around to last us several lifetimes.

I decline your invitation to be a sheeple, sheeple.

[Gallstones]

I read that most successful suicides in NZ are by hanging. Got a plan for that?

I think I told you that.
I wish I did have a plan. Any ideas?

it is much easier to make hand guns less available than to make the ingredients for hanging less available. Prisoners use bed sheets. How the hell do you stop that? Seriously, I would like to know.

No, it wouldn't be easier in the US. It would cause a lot of bloodshed. You'd have to declare a police state and go house-to-house. That's the political reality in the US that foreigners don't seem to be able or willing to comprehend. It's the reality in the States. I know; I grew up there.

And yes, people can improvise hanging materials. So can people improvise gun-making materials. People in prison make zip-guns.

Maybe NZ should start by banning rope or rope-like materials. Or maybe start with strict rope-control laws and progressively tighten down on them. Require rope registration, psychological background checks for suicidal ideation, require rope-carry permits. Any house with children must keep their ropes locked up. Anyone caught fashioning a makeshift rope goes straight to federal prison, no exceptions, etc etc. THAT would be easier than removing all the handguns from the US, and less bloody. But no less silly to propose.

Since the sole purpose of a gun is to harm or kill, I call bs on this analogy.

Killing is a legitimate act and having the best tool to do that is legitimate also.

Like most tools they can be other purposed. I don't want, buy or have my handguns with the purpose of killing anything. The hunting rifles I do intend to kill stuff with.

[Kristie]

I read that most successful suicides in NZ are by hanging. Got a plan for that?

I think I told you that.
I wish I did have a plan. Any ideas?

it is much easier to make hand guns less available than to make the ingredients for hanging less available. Prisoners use bed sheets. How the hell do you stop that? Seriously, I would like to know.

No, it wouldn't be easier in the US. It would cause a lot of bloodshed. You'd have to declare a police state and go house-to-house. That's the political reality in the US that foreigners don't seem to be able or willing to comprehend. It's the reality in the States. I know; I grew up there.

And yes, people can improvise hanging materials. So can people improvise gun-making materials. People in prison make zip-guns.

Maybe NZ should start by banning rope or rope-like materials. Or maybe start with strict rope-control laws and progressively tighten down on them. Require rope registration, psychological background checks for suicidal ideation, require rope-carry permits. Any house with children must keep their ropes locked up. Anyone caught fashioning a makeshift rope goes straight to federal prison, no exceptions, etc etc. THAT would be easier than removing all the handguns from the US, and less bloody. But no less silly to propose.

Since the sole purpose of a gun is to harm or kill, I call bs on this analogy.

Killing is a legitimate act and having the best tool to do that is legitimate also.

Where did I say anything about that? I was just pointing out that a gun has one use while rope has multiple.

[Gallstones]

[Since the sole purpose of a gun is to harm or kill, I call bs on this analogy.

Killing is a legitimate act and having the best tool to do that is legitimate also.

Where did I say anything about that? I was just pointing out that a gun has one use while rope has multiple.

So what?
Killing isn't wrong. Being purposed to kill doesn't make the gun wrong either.
How many different uses does a sponge have? How about a fork or a refrigerator?

[FBM]

Since the sole purpose of a gun is to harm or kill, I call bs on this analogy.

There are lots of sporting events in which people who have never owned a gun for any other reason participate. And hanging is still used in some countries to execute those on death row. Korea is one such country. I think Japan, too, but I'd have to look that up. An object in itself has no purpose; people have purposes and they choose whatever is available to them to achieve those purposes. I'm not in the crowd that wants absolutely unrestricted access to all forms of firearms; I'm just saying that prohibition won't work in the US. If the goal is to reduce the number of deaths, it would be counter-productive to attempt, seeing as how many deaths would result from trying to enforce handgun prohibition. And then you'd have the equivalent of moonshiners. People making guns at home, without regulations or quality controls. That's a recipe for an even greater disaster than the current handgun-related suicide rate.

[Kristie]

[Since the sole purpose of a gun is to harm or kill, I call bs on this analogy.

Killing is a legitimate act and having the best tool to do that is legitimate also.

Where did I say anything about that? I was just pointing out that a gun has one use while rope has multiple.

So what?
Killing isn't wrong. Being purposed to kill doesn't make the gun wrong either.
How many different uses does a sponge have? How about a fork or a refrigerator?

What the fuck? Did you just jump in and read only my last post and not what everyone was discussing? Please, go read or re-read the last handful of posts before coming to fucked up conclusions about what I think.

[Seth]

So every time you walk into a bank you are armed and "case the joint" ?

Yup. In fact, when entering convenience stores and banks I stop outside for a moment or two and look in the windows to see what's going on before I enter. When I enter I make note of who is where and what's going on as a matter of routine situational awareness.

Only prudent to do so. It's called living in "condition yellow."

That's not situational awareness, that's paranoia.

Ever walked in on a convenience store robbery? No? Lucky you. Me neither. And the reason is because those "paranoid" instructors at the police academy told me to exercise some common sense and do things like be situationally aware, never sit with my back to the door in a restaurant, and make sure the place you're walking into isn't in the process of being robbed before you go in.

Surprisingly, quite a number of off-duty cops actually DO walk in on mini-mart robberies...to their chagrin and sometimes their detriment. Even more civilians do so inadvertently because they are operating in "condition white" and are utterly oblivious to what's going on around them. Some of them get robbed, some of them get shot, and some of them get killed.

Contrary to your assertion, it's not "paranoia" to remain situationally aware. Trust me, I specifically asked my shrink about it at our last meeting and he didn't situational awareness as a mental defect. Of course, he's a military shrink, so he's well aware of the need for situational awareness, since he served as a combat soldier before going to med school.

My professional opinion is that it's YOU who are delusional about your safety and the need to be situationally aware. Here's hoping living in condition white never bites you in the ass, you're a cute and nice person and I'd hate to see you hurt.

Here's a professional tip: Not sure where you live, but when you cash a check at a grocery or other store, or you show your driver's license to some clerk, has it ever occurred to you that you're handing some random stranger your name, date of birth and your home address? I've personally investigated a number of crimes against pretty girls caused exactly that way, performed by a sociopath who took a job a the local mini-mart for the express purpose of gathering data on cute girls so he could go rape them. He got six girls before he was caught (not by me unfortunately, but by a neighboring jurisdiction, in the act).

So consider doing what I have done. In the US you can get a "passport card." It's a credit-card sized passport for entry to the US from Mexico or Canada, but it's also official government identification that can be used any time you need to show an ID, and it DOES NOT have your home address on it.

The ONLY time you should show your driver's license to ANYONE is to a police officer at a legal traffic stop, or perhaps in traffic court. Otherwise, use the passport card, or your passport if you can't get the card, to protect your security.

I suppose you think THAT'S paranoid tool.

[Animavore]

I decline your invitation to be a sheeple, sheeple.

He says without irony

You sound just the same as every other gun-touting, right-wing American. There is nothing original about you what-so-ever. If I was shown a transcript from Glenn Beck and a post by you I wouldn't know the difference.