Guns Used.....cont

[aspire1670]

When it comes to firearms, I somehow don't think size means as much as you seem to think it does, aspire.

*facepalm*
Oh dear, I seem to have touched a nerve. Sorry.

[amused]

When it comes to firearms, I somehow don't think size means as much as you seem to think it does, aspire.

*facepalm*
Oh dear, I seem to have touched a nerve. Sorry.

The inverse relationship between size and gauge was created to reassure gun nuts about the size of their junk.

"Why yes, you're a 410? That's MUCH better than being a 12!"

FACT

[FBM]

When it comes to firearms, I somehow don't think size means as much as you seem to think it does, aspire.

*facepalm*
Oh dear, I seem to have touched a nerve. Sorry.

No need to apologize. I'm sure you're "adequate."

[Seth]

Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Postby Blind groper » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:20 pm
To Pappa

That is a fair point, but it does not fall in line with observed data. Having a hand gun in the home increases the chances of a suicide by 400%. Having a rifle in the home, but no hand gun, increases suicide risk by a lot less.

Here is a Harvard University item on how high gun possession means high rate of death by suicide.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matte ... index.html

Actually, you're lying again. Your own link says, "Those who died by suicide were twice as likely to have a gun at home than either of the other two groups..."

And again, so what? Who cares?

It's a ridiculous exercise in pedantry to suggest that it's rational to disarm 300 million people on the off chance that 12,000 of them might fail at a suicide attempt if they have to use some other method.

Once again you simply blithely ignore the utility of handguns in favor of protecting some deranged people from themselves, at the cost of who knows how many victimizations, attacks, injuries and murders of innocent persons who could have, and factually do, protect themselves with handguns each year.

And now back to the OP:

It was 4 a.m. when Donna Hopper awoke to a stranger attempting to enter her home. When she refused to open the door, the man announced, ''I'm coming in!" Hopper wasn't sure what to do. "That's when it came to me-I had a gun," she recalled. Hopper had purchased a .38-cal. revolver just months prior for safety following the death of her husband. She retrieved the gun just in time as the burglar began prying open the window. That's when she heard the voice of her father, a longtime police officer, in her head: Two hands, Donna. Keep your elbows straight. She opened fire and connected with the burglar on the third shot. The next day she returned to the gun store where she purchased her firearm to buy a cleaning kit. Shoppers praised her actions. "They all said, 'Thank you. You're a brave woman," noted Hopper. "I said, 'No, I'm a scared old woman who just happened to have a gun." (The Record Searchlight, Redding, CA, 10/23/11)


The first thing John Chapman did upon returning home to find his front door propped open was retrieve his Taurus .38-cal. revolver. He slowly went upstairs to investigate, noting that drawers in the bedroom had been opened and items were strewn about. An intruder then sprang from behind the bedroom door. Chapman told him not to move, but the intruder rushed at him anyway. Chapman fired two shots. The intruder ran outside and collapsed on the sidewalk. He will be arrested after his release from the hospital. (Charleston Gazette, Charleston, WV, 11/03/11)


Food delivery drivers have statistically one of the 10 most dangerous jobs in America. Whether that weighed on the mind of a Papa John's delivery driver when he obtained a concealed-carry permit isn't clear, but he was glad he did when a man stuck a stolen pistol through his car window and said, "What you gonna do is drop off that money." The driver drew a .38-cal. revolver and emptied the cylinder. The wounded assailant dropped his pistol and ran into a house across the street, where he was found by police. (The Commercial Appeal, Memphis, TN, 11/05/11)


Shirley Bennett's boyfriend taught her to shoot following an attempted break-in at her home three years ago. She purchased a .38-cal. revolver, obtained a permit to carry and no longer felt vulnerable to criminals-criminals such as Joe Covington, a registered sex offender who approached Bennett's SUV in a bank parking lot. "He was hitting me from behind, trying to force me into my vehicle," explained Bennett. "I said, 'I got a gun, don't make me use it: I think my heart was going 90 mph." Covington allegedly continued wrestling with her, so she drew her gun and fired a shot, causing him to run. Police found Covington several blocks away. "I honestly believe I would not be here today if I didn't have a gun," Bennett said. (Akron Beacon Journal, Akron, OH, 11/11/11)


Based on a Walmart security video, police believe two suspects waited around the parking lot looking for an easy target. The suspects thought they'd found it when a 61-yearold woman walked to her car with groceries. They tugged at her purse in the shopping cart, but the woman fought back. She drew a .380-cal. handgun and, without a shot being fired, the suspects fled. They were caught by police. "[The suspects] purposely targeted someone they thought was easy prey," said police Lieutenant John Flowers. "Let this be a lesson to criminals about committing a crime against anyone of any age." (The Sun Herald, Biloxi, MS, 11/18/11)


Roosevelt Maggett was at home recovering from cancer treatment when a burglar knocked on the door, pushed him over a chair and tried to choke him to death. "He grabbed me," Maggett explained. "He said, 'I'm going to kill you' Despite his weakened state, Maggett was able to reach for a firearm. "I guess the good Lord gave me the strength to get him up off me," he says. Maggett fired one round into the burglar, killing him. (WMC -TV, Memphis, TN, 11/26/11)


Those who say there's no way an armed citizen could stop a potential mass shooting-and may even exacerbate the carnage-should take the following tale to heart. Customers at a Houston, Texas, Denny's restaurant were eating breakfast one morning when two armed robbers brandishing guns burst into the store and demanded money. One of the diners stood up, drew a handgun and opened fire on the men. The robbers fled the scene. No one was injured. (Associated Press, 11/26/11)


A 22-year-old woman was at home alone in Dallas, Texas when a pair of home invaders, at least one of whom was armed, kicked in the front door. After retrieving a gun, the woman spotted the criminals as they were headed to the second floor of the house. The woman opened fire on the home invaders, striking one and causing both to flee. The wounded burglar collapsed just outside the front door and was later taken to a local hospital, where he died.
The father of the armed citizen noted that he was proud of his daughter’s actions, stating, "I'm real proud of her because I taught her that... I taught my girls that -- to defend themselves when someone comes to hurt them, and apparently she listened." (NBC DFW, Dallas, Texas 10/18/12)


Italian immigrant Pete Delli Bovi was at home on his couch in Sharon, Pa. when an intruder attempted to break down his door with a brick at 3 in the afternoon. Delli Bovi, who told reporters he always keeps his .38-caliber revolver nearby, retrieved the gun and shot the criminal twice. The home invader fled the scene but was captured by police after seeking treatment at a local hospital.
Sharon Police Chief Mike Menster made clear that no charges would be filed against Delli Bovi and remarked, “This is an occupational hazard of being a burglar – eventually, you’re going to go into the wrong house and you’re going to get hurt.” (The Herald, Sharon, Pa. 11/08/12)


While driving a car he stole less than 15 minutes earlier, a thief in Ceres, Calif. spotted a 69-year-old homeowner in his garage and attempted to rob him with a knife. The homeowner responded by retrieving a nearby .38-caliber handgun and shooting the criminal twice. The wounded robber fled the home but was captured by police in a nearby yard.
An investigation revealed that the criminal already had a warrant out for his arrest, resulting from his lack of participation in a court ordered alternative work program. (The Modesto Bee, Modesto, Calif. 11/05/12)


A masked criminal, wielding what looked like a handgun, entered the Tienda la Comadre convenience store in Hermiston, Ore. and attempted to rob the store. Police say the robber was in the store for all of five seconds before the owner retrieved a gun and fired at the criminal, causing him to flee. Nothing was taken from the store. (The Tri-City Herald, Kennewick, Wash. 11/04/12)

There are thousands more such stories available at the NRA ILA's website.

[Seth]

I started another thread titled "Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 2" to get back to the OP.

[Seth]

FBM

There is plenty of opportunity to interview suicide survivors, since most suicide attempts fail. As I pointed out, most American suicide attempts are with drugs or knife. However, most successful attempts are with hand gun.

Certainly those who attempt suicide are unhappy. Else why would they do it. The impulse to suicide is brief and temporary. The unhappiness is normally much longer lasting. But most causes of depression can be overcome in time.

Then they probably shouldn't own a handgun. But to suggest that 300 million non-suicidal people should be prohibited from owning handguns just because a few suicidal individuals misuse handguns is ludicrous.

[Seth]

Gallstones

Two points.

1. I have never claimed to be better than others.
2. I have never claimed that there is anything wrong with emotion. The problem with gun loving being strongly emotional is the self delusion of gun lovers who refuse to admit this fact to themselves. This is the rationalisation that is going on. Seth, for example, tries to convince us all that he has guns to defend the people's freedom. That is a form of self delusion. His reasons for having guns are purely emotional. In his case, because of the obsessive restating of the largely imaginary 'problem' of someone invading his home, I think fear is a powerful motivator, as well as that feeling of power.

There is nothing wrong with emotions, if we are honest enough to accept our own emotional make up. One of the great joys in my life is the love I have for my wife, and the love she returns to me. Those are powerful emotions, and I openly and gladly admit them. Earlier someone mentioned the love of musical instruments. If that love brings joy, then I am glad for the person blessed with that love.

The love of guns is also wrong when it is tied up with death and misery. If the guns have no use apart from killing humans, as with hand guns, then that love is wrong. If a person is a keen hunter, and puts meat on the table, and loves the rifle that enables him/her to do that, then I am glad for that person's pleasure. But glorifying in weapons that have no purpose other than to kill people is wrong, wrong, wrong!

No it's not. Some people need to be killed and handguns are one of many effective tools for getting the job done. You are fallaciously ascribing "motive" or "intent" to an inanimate lump of metal that have other purposes than just to "kill people." The vast majority of handguns in fact kill nothing at all and are used routinely to punch holes in paper and spang lead off of steel. That you don't think this is a justifiable recreational activity only demonstrates how mindlessly dedicated you are to your paranoid rantings.

[Robert_S]

Merged,

[Jason]

When it comes to firearms, I somehow don't think size means as much as you seem to think it does, aspire.

*facepalm*
Oh dear, I seem to have touched a nerve. Sorry.

The inverse relationship between size and gauge was created to reassure gun nuts about the size of their junk.

"Why yes, you're a 410? That's MUCH better than being a 12!"

FACT

Actually no. Gauge, only used in shotguns, has a much more interesting history:

The gauge of a firearm is a unit of measurement used to express the diameter of the barrel. Gauge is determined from the weight of a solid sphere of lead that will fit the bore of the firearm, and is expressed as the multiplicative inverse of the sphere's weight as a fraction of a pound (e.g., a 1⁄12th pound ball fits a 12-gauge bore). Thus there are twelve 12-gauge balls per pound (etc.). The term is related to the measurement of cannon, which were also measured by the weight of their iron round shot; an 8 pounder would fire an 8 lb (3.6 kg) spherical cast iron ball and had a bore diameter of about 91 mm (3.6 in).

Also the .410 is actually a calibre and not a gauge (there are some firearms where you can use .410 or .45 long colt ammo interchangeably.

ETA: The .410 is a much smaller gun than any 12 gauge so your joke doesn't make much sense. Also the .410 is pretty useless against anything except partridge, quail, and rabbits.

[Blind groper]

To Seth.

Let me quote an adage of skeptics - you know, those guys who think rationally.

"The plural of anecdote is not data."

You can tell all sorts of stories, and they mean as much as if they came from "The Bumper Boys book of Violence."

A while back, I tried to gather some statistics on home invasions. I couldn't. The reason turns out that this kind of crime is so rare that the various police forces around the world do not even bother collecting statistics on it. Now, if you are talking burglaries, we have another story. There is any amount of data on burglaries, because that is a common crime.

A burglar, though, will avoid his victims like the plague. Burglars stake out a house and observe it, and make sure they enter only when no one is at home. Contrary to myth, most burglaries occur in broad daylight, because that is when people are out. The ones that happen at night are those places where the occupants are on holiday and away, and the burglar discovers this fact. If the burglar enters a home in error, when people are there, as soon as he finds out, he is out of there like the wind. The point I am making is that having a gun to counter burglars is quite pointless, since the burglar will not enter the home when people are there.

To have a gun to counter home invasions is like wearing a steel helmet all the time in case a meteor falls on your head. It is an event so rare that those precautions are a joke. Keeping a gun to oppose home invasions is so irrational that we can call it utterly paranoid. As I have pointed out repeatedly, the increase in probability of both homicide and suicide of a family member, because of that gun, is massively greater than the tiny chance the gun can be used in self defense.

Nor are home invasions rare because of guns. Home invasions are rare everywhere. They are sufficiently rare in my country, where no one has a hand gun, that each and every one is published in national newspapers. Try to get a burglary written up in the papers!

[Tero]

I certainly feel superior to gun nuts. My genes are better suited to Future Earth. People are going to give up all kinds of power to cohabit the crowded planet. We will round up all gun nuts and put them in a gun-leper colony. You can shoot each other. We will encourage it.

We will use teanquilizer darts and stung guns when we come and handcuff you.

[Jason]

How will you round us up? Convincing arguments? Stern looks? Colourful language? :p

[Kristie]

I certainly feel superior to gun nuts. My genes are better suited to Future Earth. People are going to give up all kinds of power to cohabit the crowded planet. We will round up all gun nuts and put them in a gun-leper colony. You can shoot each other. We will encourage it.

We will use teanquilizer darts and stung guns when we come and handcuff you.

Oh, Tero! Brace yourself for the inevitable attacks!

[aspire1670]

How will you round us up? Convincing arguments? Stern looks? Colourful language? :p

We will use a combination of armchair sales data and Google Basement Tracker.

[Tero]

We are Big Brother. We are everywhere. We will teap you when you come out of your compound. If you don't, we will just fence you in.

We will use bulldozers.