Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

[Coito ergo sum]

I didn't write this, but I agree with it..

"Unlike Islam's quran, which commands Muslims to force the entire planet to submit to literal control by Islam, the Jewish Torah promises the children of Israel a modest and reasonable allotment of land. Israel , is a democratic nation 1/19th the size of California, surrounded by 22 hostile Arab/Islamic dictatorships with 640 times her size, 60 times her population and ALL the oil. How dare Arab propagandists call Israel "expansionist!" And how dare anyone believe them! How can Israel, which occupies one-sixth of one percent of the lands called Arab, be responsible for the political dissatisfaction of 22 Arab countries? How can the 13 million Jews in the world (almost 5 million fewer than they were in 1939!) be blamed for the problems of the 300 million Arabs, who have brotherly ties to 1.4 billion Muslims worldwide"? (From Beardy Git's FB page)

And, the Muslim groups SAY they want to wipe Israel out. They SAY that Israel has no right to exist. They express their overt goal as being the elimination of "the Jews" because of how contemptible they are.

I mean -- from Hamas' perspective, from Iran's perspective, from Hizb'Allah's perspective, etc., Israel is occupied territory. It's not just occupying territory outside its borders. It is itself being occupied by Jews and that is what the problem is.

[Audley Strange]

You don't have to be insulting about it. I'm not ignorant.

Just because the UN thinks X, Y and Z are the occupied territories doesn't mean that all the players are in agreement on that being the case. Hamas, for example, thinks Israel itself is an occupied territory.

So, that's the genesis of my question -- what would Israel have to do? if they went back to the 1967 borders, would that stop the attacks on Israel? If so, why did the attacks occur in 1967 and at other times in the first place?

Isn't it true that the majority of Palestinians and Hamas as well as the PLO want to liberate "Palestine" meaning the area including West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights, East Jerusalem, West Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and the rest of the land presently known as Israel?

I wasn't being insulting, I know you are not ignorant of the information, to ask when you already knew the answers and thus in giving you them I was making the pretense that you were. Apologies if you took it as such.

Israel can do nothing but cease to exist as a state, I accept that and to be frank, agree with the proposition, but not in the sense that "teh evil joopigs must be destroyed" rather than neither Jews nor Muslims are deserving of separate states in the region or a claim on Temple Mount etc.

While I cannot speak for the majority of Palestinians, I accept that their consideration of a Palestinian state is as problematic as the State of Israel. The concept of a two state solution, seems to me to be encouraging religious division which modern society should not tolerate.

However for the record I will say again, neither side is interested in peace. They are quite happy to kill each other and use religion to tear each other apart. The asymmetric nature is grostewsque and appalling in cost, but entirely correct strategically. Whether or not they are doing it for the purposes of genocide or retaliation, it makes perfect sense to beat the fuck out of your enemy if they are attacking you and genocides tend not to be pretty either. They don't want peace.

Conversely having been chased off your land by tanks in the dead of night, watching your families be killed year in and year out by what you see as an illegal occupation would tend to make you fight back.

Perhaps rather we should consider it a civil war between two opposing, unrecognised fanatical religious groups who have usurped the secular democratic nature of a single country and withdraw all support and let them get on with it. A one state solution might help the actual people recognise the enemy is on both sides of the walls and that they are not killing others but their own people?

[Animavore]

Is similar to the solution I've always thought plausible for Northern Ireland. Make it their own separate country from both Britain and Ireland. But I don't dare say that to a Northie

I think the Israelis, though, being the side with the vastly superior army, should take the lead in growing up. Either that or just destroy their enemy in one fell swoop and be done with it.

Ok, maybe not the latter.

[Coito ergo sum]

Sure, neither Jew nor Muslim ought have a better claim to the Temple Mount and such, just because of their religion. And, in the best of all possible worlds, Israel would not be a "Jewish state." However, the same ought to be said for Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Iran etc. They ought not be "Muslim States." And, as long as these hateful Muslim regimes exist, what choice does Israel have? I mean -- as a practical matter.

I never seem to hear the same objection to "Muslim States" as I hear regarding the "Jewish State." In fact, there seems to be some widespread belief that the middle east OUGHT to be Muslim, even by left-wing secularists -- sometimes especially from left wing secularists.

[Animavore]

You've really never heard the same objection to Muslim states?! I mean, seriously?

You haven't been listening very well.

[Coito ergo sum]

You've really never heard the same objection to Muslim states?! I mean, seriously?

You haven't been listening very well.

Linky?

For some reason, folks have no trouble suggesting that Jews whose grandparents were born in Israel ought to "go home" to some other country.Jews should "get the hell out of Palestine" and "go back home to Poland, Germany, America and everywhere else." - Helen Thomas.

When folks talk about a Palestinian State, it's generally assumed it will be a "Muslim" state.

Certainly, every Palestinian and Arab militant organization out there says that "the Jews" need to get the fuck out, and the area should be "Islamic."

[Animavore]

You've really never heard the same objection to Muslim states?! I mean, seriously?

You haven't been listening very well.

Linky?

For some reason, folks have no trouble suggesting that Jews whose grandparents were born in Israel ought to "go home" to some other country.Jews should "get the hell out of Palestine" and "go back home to Poland, Germany, America and everywhere else." - Helen Thomas.

When folks talk about a Palestinian State, it's generally assumed it will be a "Muslim" state.

Certainly, every Palestinian and Arab militant organization out there says that "the Jews" need to get the fuck out, and the area should be "Islamic."

Linky? Do you want links to every article where people have outlined the dangers of the Middle East falling into the hands of Islamic theocracy after the recent Middle East revolutions (I forget the umbrella term)? - Seriously?

And who is saying anything here about telling the Jews to "go home"? That, to me, is like telling the Prods up North to "go home". I understand the nuances of these type of feuds more than a lot of people out there in this Israel v Palestine bollox who are wont to try come down on one side or the other, forever perpetuating and exasperating the troubles. If I had my way, if it were possible, I'd lock the two nations in a room 'til they sorted their shit out. Both sides of the debate are actually wrong as long as they are on a side.

[Coito ergo sum]

You've really never heard the same objection to Muslim states?! I mean, seriously?

You haven't been listening very well.

Linky?

For some reason, folks have no trouble suggesting that Jews whose grandparents were born in Israel ought to "go home" to some other country.Jews should "get the hell out of Palestine" and "go back home to Poland, Germany, America and everywhere else." - Helen Thomas.

When folks talk about a Palestinian State, it's generally assumed it will be a "Muslim" state.

Certainly, every Palestinian and Arab militant organization out there says that "the Jews" need to get the fuck out, and the area should be "Islamic."

Linky? Do you want links to every article where people have outlined the dangers of the Middle East falling into the hands of Islamic theocracy after the recent Middle East revolutions (I forget the umbrella term)? - Seriously?

No, just one criticizing the Palestinians for demanding a Muslim state, or suggesting that Islamic countries ought not be "Islamic countries." The tendency, from what I have seen, from the multiculturalist left is to suggest that the middle east was properly Muslim.

And who is saying anything here about telling the Jews to "go home"? That, to me, is like telling the Prods up North to "go home". I understand the nuances of these type of feuds more than a lot of people out there in this Israel v Palestine bollox who are wont to try come down on one side or the other, forever perpetuating and exasperating the troubles. If I had my way, if it were possible, I'd lock the two nations in a room 'til they sorted their shit out. Both sides of the debate are actually wrong as long as they are on a side.

The Palestinians. Hamas. Among others. I quoted Helen Thomas, a mainstream, long-lived member of the White House Press Corp for over 50 years. Her view is not singular or unique.

[Animavore]

She's an idiot. Plus, she should go home to whatever European country she came from.

[Cormac]

You mean the Israeli government has not stopped their little genocide and they're still blaming Iran? Quelle suprise.

This is utter nonsense. 21% of the Israeli population is non-Jewish. Who are they exterminating?

In the northern part of Israel the Jewish population is declining. The overall non-Jewish Arab population within Israel is on the rise, and they hold majority status in two major geographic regions – the Galilee and the Triangle. In the next 20-30 years, population changes project Israel becoming 50-50 Jewish and non-Jewish, and even majority Arab by around 2040.

That's genocide?

Tye definition of genocide was set by Raphael Lemkin. From what I can see, what the state of Israel is engaged in is genocide.

[Coito ergo sum]

Write out the definition you're applying.

[Cormac]

Sure, neither Jew nor Muslim ought have a better claim to the Temple Mount and such, just because of their religion. And, in the best of all possible worlds, Israel would not be a "Jewish state." However, the same ought to be said for Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Iran etc. They ought not be "Muslim States." And, as long as these hateful Muslim regimes exist, what choice does Israel have? I mean -- as a practical matter.

I never seem to hear the same objection to "Muslim States" as I hear regarding the "Jewish State." In fact, there seems to be some widespread belief that the middle east OUGHT to be Muslim, even by left-wing secularists -- sometimes especially from left wing secularists.

I don't think ANYWHERE should be Muslim. I just think that ultimately, a non-sectarian solution will arise. Until then, many people are going to die for no reason at all.

[Cormac]

Write out the definition you're applying.

Look it up. It is the official definition.

[Audley Strange]

Sure, neither Jew nor Muslim ought have a better claim to the Temple Mount and such, just because of their religion. And, in the best of all possible worlds, Israel would not be a "Jewish state." However, the same ought to be said for Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Iran etc. They ought not be "Muslim States." And, as long as these hateful Muslim regimes exist, what choice does Israel have? I mean -- as a practical matter.

I never seem to hear the same objection to "Muslim States" as I hear regarding the "Jewish State." In fact, there seems to be some widespread belief that the middle east OUGHT to be Muslim, even by left-wing secularists -- sometimes especially from left wing secularists.

I agree with your first paragraph in so far as we should not recognise on the international stage countries that are defined by their majority (and sometimes minority) religious groups. They deserve no recognition until they remove that from their governments and diplomatic arena.

and agree with Ani regarding your second. Especially since I raised an objection to a Palestinian state because it would be such and would encourage religious division.

For the record Coito, yes there are left wing secularists who say such stupid fucking things and their are right wing secularists that say Israel should be allowed to nuke Iran. Neither are "widespread beliefs" except from Muslim nutcases and Jewish nutcases. Stupid fucks on both sides of the walls. We need to stop enabling either. They are the problem.

[Coito ergo sum]

I go by the definition in the International Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

The reason I ask what definition you are applying is that Israel's conduct isn't anything like the definition of genocide under international law.

It seems that folks just want to hurl the allegation of genocide about to the point that it doesn't have meaning anymore.