Guns used for lawful self defense

[Seth]

I have come under attack from Seth, Gallstones, and now you.

You think this is an attack?

This is a moderately amusing debunking of hoplophobe propaganda, not an attack. If you want an attack, graze your way on over to my place and let's see if you've got the sand to walk the walk rather than just talking the talk. Methinks you'll bleat a little more and retreat to the paddock where the sheepleherder can keep you safe...until it's time to have mutton for dinner.

I have done my research and offered up good data.

No you haven't, you've just parroted hoary old Handgun Control propaganda and lies that have been thoroughly debunked for years now by this little thing called "reality." More than two decades of empirical research in creating societies with "more guns" in the hands of law-abiding citizens has factually and indisputably resulted in "less crime" in every such jurisdiction, notwithstanding your muddle-headed and dishonest practice of simply ignoring the actual facts.

My reward is hostility.

Call people "psychopaths" and what do you expect?

Well, that is life.

Yes, it is. But the only salient point here is that we have guns in abundance and you don't, which means we can safely ignore your petty maunderings and paranoid rantings.

[Blind groper]

It also makes it a perfect defensive weapon to prevent murder and criminal victimization, which it does some 2.5 million times per year in the U.S..

That is a claim made on the basis of a very dodgy survey. Other people view it differently.
http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/self_defense.pdf

I quote :

"Other studies have looked specifically at the more narrow question of keeping guns in the home
for self-defense. One, published in The New England Journal of Medicine, found that having a gun in
the home made it nearly three times more likely that someone in the family will be killed. This risk is
particularly high for women, who are more likely to be killed by a spouse, intimate acquaintance, or
close relative. An Archives of Internal Medicine study found that, with one or more guns in the home,
the risk of suicide among women increased nearly five times and the risk of homicide increased more
than three times."

In other words, studies published in reputable peer reviewed journals show that the harm from having a gun in the home far outweighs any dubious self defense value.

Second quote :

, "the US Department of Justice study found that, on the average, between 1987 and 1992 only one percent
of actual or attempted victims of violent crime, or about 62,000 people, attempted to defend themselves
with a firearm. On the other hand, criminals armed with handguns committed a record 931,000 violent
crimes in 1992."

Third quote :

"One advocate of the value of handguns for self-defense is Gary Kleck, professor of criminology
at Florida State University in Tallahassee. Kleck and his colleague Mark Gertz claim their survey
research indicates that civilians use guns in self-defense up to 2.5 million times a year."

and.....

"But Dr. David Hemenway, a professor at Harvard’s School of Public Health, dissected the work of
Kleck and Gertz in The Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology, concluding that their survey contained ”a
huge overestimation bias” and that their estimate is “highly exaggerated.” Hemenway applied Kleck
and Gertz’s methodology to a 1994 ABC News/Washington Post survey in which people were asked if
they had ever seen an alien spacecraft or come into direct contact with a space alien. He
demonstrated that, by the application of Kleck and Gertz’s methodology, one would conclude that
almost 20 million Americans have seen a spacecraft from another planet and more than a million have
actually met space aliens."

Or, in other words, the 2.5 million result is just a load of baloney.

[Seabass]

Thank you tattuchu.

To Seabass.
When I use words like 'barbaric', 'backward', 'sick' and so on, I am describing gun culture. I am not using those words to insult individuals.

American gun culture is unique among western advanced nations. No other nation sees it as a human right to permit citizens to possess tools for murder and suicide, which is what a hand gun is. As I have pointed out, a hand gun is distinctly inferior to a rifle as a hunting weapon, and unnecessary as a target weapon (less lethal air guns are available). The only special qualities a hand gun has is portability, concealability and lethality at close range. Which makes it a perfect murder weapon. It is also the perfect suicide weapon, with over 90% lethality. Both end uses cause human tragedies. Making it a human right to possess such a tool is not rational.

Now, I admit I used the word 'psychopath' to describe Seth. However, this is an honest appraisal rather than a gratuitous insult. Seth is a strange person, and his comments on this and other threads are entirely consistent with mental illness, and probably with psychopathy.

On the love of guns. Yes, I will use words like 'religious', and 'nutter'. That is because those words describe the syndrome very well. Just as people in my country are often very 'religious' in their attitude to rugby football, so a lot of Americans, including many on this thread, are 'religious' in their approach to firearms. I feel no shame in using the term 'gun nutter', since so many American gun enthusiasts describe themselves as 'gun nutters'. If it is OK for them to self describe that way, it seems OK for me.

Incredible. What a bunch of lame excuses for behaving like an asshole toward people with whom you disagree.

"Barbaric", "sick", "backward", "psychotic", "nutter" are insults whether the other person is wrong or not. You can't just claim it's ok to insult people because they're wrong, or have what is in your view the wrong opinion.

Bottom line is, your insults and derision add nothing of value to the discussion, and serve only to inflame and provoke. Now, if you want to be insulting and derisive, fine. If you want to be inflammatory and provocative, fine. But if that's how you want to roll, you have no right to bitch when others return the favor.

[Blind groper]

You can't just claim it's ok to insult people because they're wrong, or have what is in your view the wrong opinion.

I have never done that.

[Seabass]

You can't just claim it's ok to insult people because they're wrong, or have what is in your view the wrong opinion.

I have never done that.

Perhaps not literally, but it's more or less what what you did in the post I quoted.

[Blind groper]

Perhaps not literally, but it's more or less what what you did in the post I quoted.

Seabass

If you want to accuse someone, it is good to get your facts straight first.

[Blind groper]

I decided to see what else came from Dr. David Hemenway, and found this.
http://harvardmagazine.com/2004/09/deat ... arrel.html

I quote :
"The percentage of the U.S. population victimized in 2000 by crimes like assault, car theft, burglary, robbery, and sexual incidents is about average for 17 industrialized countries, and lower on many indices than Canada, Australia, or New Zealand.

"The only thing that jumps out is lethal violence," Hemenway says. Violence, pace H. Rap Brown, is not "as American as cherry pie," but American violence does tend to end in death. The reason, plain and simple, is guns."

and also

"In general, guns don’t induce people to commit crimes. "What guns do is make crimes lethal," says Hemenway. They also make suicide attempts lethal: about 60 percent of suicides in America involve guns. "If you try to kill yourself with drugs, there’s a 2 to 3 percent chance of dying," he explains. "With guns, the chance is 90 percent."

and also

" In 2001, about 30,000 people died from gunfire in the United States. Set this against the 43,000 annual deaths from motor-vehicle accidents to recognize what startling carnage comes out of a barrel. The comparison is especially telling because cars "are a way of life," as Hemenway explains. "People use cars all day, every day—and ‘motor vehicles’ include trucks. How many of us use guns?"

And, of course, a whole lot more. I dare you to read the full reference.

[Robert_S]

Seth engages in activity that some people call trolling. He may or may not actually hold the views that he argues but that won't stop him defending those views passionately. Sometimes I think he just loves a good sparring match for its own sake.

We do not, at this time, have a policy about appraisals of poster's mental health, but to be on the safe side and make the mod's lives easier, it might be a good idea to stick to attacking content and let the reader draw their own conclusions about the poster's state of mind.


This has been a Robert_S pueblick cervix announcement.

Thank you all for your attention.

[Gallstones]

I hosted a dinner tonight. The first dinner I have hosted in 12 years. A birthday dinner for my son who was 19yo yesterday; and a dinner for me to invite people whose company I enjoy and want more of--especially........well, a particular person, who came and said he'd been looking forward to it. I did myself proud, he'll come back. Anyway....

One of the first things we did was a show and tell, I brought out the new handgun because my guests all own guns and wanted to see mine. Two handguns on the dinner table, magazines being dropped, slides pulled, triggers too.

I was thinking at the time what some people on the internet, with whom I have these discussions, would be thinking and feeling if they looked through my windows. I also remarked to the room how ordinary this was, this sharing and discussion of weapons--who has what, etc.--and what some people I discourse with on the internet would be thinking and feeling if they were looking through my windows. [Private smirk].

And that lasted until the first course came then the guns were put away and other things were discussed--when we weren't silent for the eating.

It was a special evening.

[Gallstones]

I think this hostility to the United Nations by less enlightened Americans is very sad. The UN is, of course, an imperfect mechanism, but it still has the potential to do a great deal of good in the world. It has no military power, of course, and its members act so as to keep things that way. As a result, when the United States acts to sabotage its good works, it cannot act effectively. Very sad.

"Less enlightened"
Fuck your passive aggressive backhand elitist ridicule.

The US is not like the rest of you. We think and do things differently--we don't want to be like you, we expect you to be like us or fuck off.

[Kristie]

I think this hostility to the United Nations by less enlightened Americans is very sad. The UN is, of course, an imperfect mechanism, but it still has the potential to do a great deal of good in the world. It has no military power, of course, and its members act so as to keep things that way. As a result, when the United States acts to sabotage its good works, it cannot act effectively. Very sad.

"Less enlightened"
Fuck your passive aggressive backhand elitist ridicule.

The US is not like the rest of you. We think and do things differently--we don't want to be like you, we expect you to be like us or fuck off.

Just wanted to mention that as a member of the US, I do not endorse this message.

[FBM]

Yeah, I don't want the rest of the world to be like the US, either. I'm fine with the US being like the US and other places/peoples being like they are. Culture isn't a one-size-fits-all proposition.

[Blind groper]

Thank you Kristie and FBM.
I have said before that most Americans are nice people, and you reinforce that opinion.

Gallstones.
The way you worded that last post makes you appear most arrogant and unattractive. You might like to re-think your wording.

[Gallstones]

Seabass

That is still not nice.
I have suspected for a long time that gun culture in America is like soccer culture in Britain, and Rugby culture in my country. That is : to enthusiasts, it goes beyond being a hobby and becomes a kind of religion. Like other religions, the adherents get really annoyed when someone attacks it.

I have come under attack from Seth, Gallstones, and now you. Interesting, since all I have done is attack the widespread use of hand guns, and the devastation it creates.

If there is one thing worse than attacking your religion, though, it is attacking it successfully. I have done my research and offered up good data. My reward is hostility. Well, that is life.

If anyone is sounding like "Seth", it's you.

[Gallstones]

Seabass

That is still not nice.
I have suspected for a long time that gun culture in America is like soccer culture in Britain, and Rugby culture in my country. That is : to enthusiasts, it goes beyond being a hobby and becomes a kind of religion. Like other religions, the adherents get really annoyed when someone attacks it.

I have come under attack from Seth, Gallstones, and now you. Interesting, since all I have done is attack the widespread use of hand guns, and the devastation it creates.

If there is one thing worse than attacking your religion, though, it is attacking it successfully. I have done my research and offered up good data. My reward is hostility. Well, that is life.

You aren't under attack.
I disagree and say so. That isn't an attack.