Guns used for lawful self defense

[Seabass]

Seabass

That is still not nice.

[Seabass]

Seabass

That is still not nice.
I have suspected for a long time that gun culture in America is like soccer culture in Britain, and Rugby culture in my country. That is : to enthusiasts, it goes beyond being a hobby and becomes a kind of religion. Like other religions, the adherents get really annoyed when someone attacks it.

I have come under attack from Seth, Gallstones, and now you. Interesting, since all I have done is attack the widespread use of hand guns, and the devastation it creates.

If there is one thing worse than attacking your religion, though, it is attacking it successfully. I have done my research and offered up good data. My reward is hostility. Well, that is life.

Oh, I dunno. Maybe some people are just annoyed by the continuous stream of insults, and your constant moralizing, condescension, hypocrisy, sanctimony, and self-righteousness.

[FBM]

I think Bg offers better data when he's not side-tracked by having to defend himself against emotion-laden ridicule. Some of his data on suicide improved my understanding of the issue. Even so, he hasn't made a strong case for his solution of banning private handgun ownership. While I agree that it might reduce some (unsure how many) suicide and accidental deaths, it's like driving a thumb-tack with a sledgehammer. You wind up doing more damage than good. Why? Because the social, historical and cultural realities are that if the gummit were to try to pass and enforce such a law, the civil strife that would surely ensue would overshadow any potential benefits. And I don't think it would be a short-term thing, either. You can't just pass a law and erase the momentum of history and culture. So Bg's solution is a pie-in-the-sky idea that falls flat as soon as it has to face reality. If, sometime in the future, the will of the majority of the US public changes, then would be the time to start looking at that possibility. But that's a looooooong time coming.

[Blind groper]

Pord

FYI, the term 'shit stirrer' in my part of the world means 'rascally' and is actually quite affectionate. Sorry you misunderstood.

As for the rest, I think I will not bother answering. If you have something actually intelligent to offer, I will listen.

[JimC]

I think Bg offers better data when he's not side-tracked by having to defend himself against emotion-laden ridicule. Some of his data on suicide improved my understanding of the issue. Even so, he hasn't made a strong case for his solution of banning private handgun ownership. While I agree that it might reduce some (unsure how many) suicide and accidental deaths, it's like driving a thumb-tack with a sledgehammer. You wind up doing more damage than good. Why? Because the social, historical and cultural realities are that if the gummit were to try to pass and enforce such a law, the civil strife that would surely ensue would overshadow any potential benefits. And I don't think it would be a short-term thing, either. You can't just pass a law and erase the momentum of history and culture. So Bg's solution is a pie-in-the-sky idea that falls flat as soon as it has to face reality. If, sometime in the future, the will of the majority of the US public changes, then would be the time to start looking at that possibility. But that's a looooooong time coming.

I think he has at least made a damn good case for the rest of the developed world to maintain their restrictions on hand-gun ownership.

The US seems to be so locked into to the whole gun culture thing that it is virtually inconceivable you can do much in the way of serious change, other than perhaps getting a bit stronger about reducing the numbers of complete natters which access to hand-guns and or semi-auto rifles, making it easy to go postal...

[FBM]

Yeah, I've said before that I think more extensive pscyological screenings are needed. Someone gave me hell for saying it, of course.

[Blind groper]

Oh, I dunno. Maybe some people are just annoyed by the continuous stream of insults, and your constant moralizing, condescension, hypocrisy, sanctimony, and self-righteousness.

Always interesting to see how people interpret things when seen through their own filter of bias.

No, Seabass. I saw a problem, and I have spoken about it. I have done the research and presented the data. It always says something when people like you stop trying to argue the facts and resort to insults. It means your case has run dry, and instead of admitting defeat, you resort to ad homs.

As I said before, you are doing your best to become another Seth. That sort of thing can only happen when personal pride has gone.

[Seabass]

Oh, I dunno. Maybe some people are just annoyed by the continuous stream of insults, and your constant moralizing, condescension, hypocrisy, sanctimony, and self-righteousness.

Always interesting to see how people interpret things when seen through their own filter of bias.

No, Seabass. I saw a problem, and I have spoken about it. I have done the research and presented the data. It always says something when people like you stop trying to argue the facts and resort to insults. It means your case has run dry, and instead of admitting defeat, you resort to ad homs.

As I said before, you are doing your best to become another Seth. That sort of thing can only happen when personal pride has gone.

Oh good god. Get over yourself, you self-important boob.

Look, when you use words like "sick", "backward", "barbaric", "psychotic", "sociopath", "nutter", "religious", etc., to describe gun owners and Americans, you're going to annoy some people. Your data presentation has never been the problem, for Christ's sake.

And you have the honeydew melon-sized cojones to admonish others for resorting to insult and ad hom? Your hypocrisy is legendary!

By the way, I'm pretty sure you've posted more on this topic than anyone else on this forum, which makes you the most religious gun nut of all. You just happen to be anti instead of for.

[FBM]

...By the way, I'm pretty sure you've posted more on this topic than anyone else on this forum, which makes you the most religious gun nut of all. You just happen to be anti instead of for.

Whoa. Damn good point. But this debate has spanned ump-teen dozen threads, so maybe Bg isn't the most prolific poster about it. But probably right up there with the best of 'em. (Seth, Mistermack, Gallstones, et al.)

And if you think about it, your approach could be used to characterize atheists as 'religiously' anti-religious.

[tattuchu]

I think Seabass was just being silly when he said the bit about the bb gun.

But I find Groper's posts on this issue to be very calm and even tempered, and entirely rational. I'm not picking up any condescension, but merely a statement of his position. But that may be because I'm on his side, so to speak. I don't see his comments as anti-gun and anti-American, just anti-insanity.

[Blind groper]

Thank you tattuchu.

To Seabass.
When I use words like 'barbaric', 'backward', 'sick' and so on, I am describing gun culture. I am not using those words to insult individuals.

American gun culture is unique among western advanced nations. No other nation sees it as a human right to permit citizens to possess tools for murder and suicide, which is what a hand gun is. As I have pointed out, a hand gun is distinctly inferior to a rifle as a hunting weapon, and unnecessary as a target weapon (less lethal air guns are available). The only special qualities a hand gun has is portability, concealability and lethality at close range. Which makes it a perfect murder weapon. It is also the perfect suicide weapon, with over 90% lethality. Both end uses cause human tragedies. Making it a human right to possess such a tool is not rational.

Now, I admit I used the word 'psychopath' to describe Seth. However, this is an honest appraisal rather than a gratuitous insult. Seth is a strange person, and his comments on this and other threads are entirely consistent with mental illness, and probably with psychopathy.

On the love of guns. Yes, I will use words like 'religious', and 'nutter'. That is because those words describe the syndrome very well. Just as people in my country are often very 'religious' in their attitude to rugby football, so a lot of Americans, including many on this thread, are 'religious' in their approach to firearms. I feel no shame in using the term 'gun nutter', since so many American gun enthusiasts describe themselves as 'gun nutters'. If it is OK for them to self describe that way, it seems OK for me.

[Woodbutcher]

Thank you tattuchu.

To Seabass.
When I use words like 'barbaric', 'backward', 'sick' and so on, I am describing gun culture. I am not using those words to insult individuals.

American gun culture is unique among western advanced nations. No other nation sees it as a human right to permit citizens to possess tools for murder and suicide, which is what a hand gun is. As I have pointed out, a hand gun is distinctly inferior to a rifle as a hunting weapon, and unnecessary as a target weapon (less lethal air guns are available). The only special qualities a hand gun has is portability, concealability and lethality at close range. Which makes it a perfect murder weapon. It is also the perfect suicide weapon, with over 90% lethality. Both end uses cause human tragedies. Making it a human right to possess such a tool is not rational.

Now, I admit I used the word 'psychopath' to describe Seth. However, this is an honest appraisal rather than a gratuitous insult. Seth is a strange person, and his comments on this and other threads are entirely consistent with mental illness, and probably with psychopathy.

On the love of guns. Yes, I will use words like 'religious', and 'nutter'. That is because those words describe the syndrome very well. Just as people in my country are often very 'religious' in their attitude to rugby football, so a lot of Americans, including many on this thread, are 'religious' in their approach to firearms. I feel no shame in using the term 'gun nutter', since so many American gun enthusiasts describe themselves as 'gun nutters'. If it is OK for them to self describe that way, it seems OK for me.

As long as you do not call African Americans "niggers" even though they may call each other that. You have to be in the "in-group" to use a derogatory term about that group. Sort of like calling us ratz...

[Blind groper]

As long as you do not call African Americans "niggers" even though they may call each other that. You have to be in the "in-group" to use a derogatory term about that group. Sort of like calling us ratz...

I understand your point. However, it still appears to me to be small minded to resent a term they use themselves.

[Seth]

Thank you tattuchu.

To Seabass.
When I use words like 'barbaric', 'backward', 'sick' and so on, I am describing gun culture. I am not using those words to insult individuals.

Liar.

American gun culture is unique among western advanced nations.

Yes, it is, and it's a good thing because it's what keeps us free.

No other nation sees it as a human right to permit citizens to possess tools for murder and suicide, which is what a hand gun is.

That's because they are nations comprised of obedient sheeple who will agree with anything they are told by their intellectual betters in government because they haven't the native wit to reason things out for themselves.

As I have pointed out, a hand gun is distinctly inferior to a rifle as a hunting weapon, and unnecessary as a target weapon (less lethal air guns are available).

Can't shoot steel targets at 100 yards with an air pistol, Sparky.

The only special qualities a hand gun has is portability, concealability and lethality at close range. Which makes it a perfect murder weapon.

It also makes it a perfect defensive weapon to prevent murder and criminal victimization, which it does some 2.5 million times per year in the U.S.

It is also the perfect suicide weapon, with over 90% lethality

.

Which is a good thing, because if you want to kill yourself you should do it right the first time so you don't end up a brain-dead vegetable and a drain on your family's resources.

Both end uses cause human tragedies.

And once again you simply ignore the documented fact that they are used at least 10 times more often to prevent human tragedies than they are to perpetrate them.

Making it a human right to possess such a tool is not rational.

Saying that it's not a human right to keep and bear the most effective self-defense weapon ever invented is flatly insane.

Now, I admit I used the word 'psychopath' to describe Seth. However, this is an honest appraisal rather than a gratuitous insult.

There you go again, and once again nobody calls you on it. This time I will do so, and if you're not suspended for 24 hours, I'll return to calling you names.

Seth is a strange person, and his comments on this and other threads are entirely consistent with mental illness, and probably with psychopathy.

That your "professional" opinion is it? Or are you just another Internet forum putz who thinks he's smarter than he actually is?

On the love of guns. Yes, I will use words like 'religious', and 'nutter'. That is because those words describe the syndrome very well.

Nah, it's just Green Monkey psychology on your part. You don't understand guns or our culture and you're pissing yourself in fear that our culture might creep over into yours if your fellow countrymen come to realize how badly hoplophobes like you have fucked their liberty and freedom, so you scream and throw feces at it through the bars of your cage of sheep-like complacence and try to convince yourself that you're being all intellectually superior and rational and junk. But you aren't, you're just scared and don't have the wit to actually accept the fact that the American experiment with "more guns, less crime" has worked quite well and disproves every canard that you've tossed out.

Just as people in my country are often very 'religious' in their attitude to rugby football, so a lot of Americans, including many on this thread, are 'religious' in their approach to firearms. I feel no shame in using the term 'gun nutter', since so many American gun enthusiasts describe themselves as 'gun nutters'. If it is OK for them to self describe that way, it seems OK for me.

[/quote]

We do that to poke fun at hoplophobes, and scare them into pissing themselves. Works really well.

[Seth]

Hey Gallstones, how many personal attacks and "not playing nice" did you report for BG? You can add one more, but I reported it already.