Guns used for lawful self defense

[Jason]

Now this is more like a gun debate! No common basis to argue from, personalization, and semi-relevant tangents!

[Blind groper]

I think this hostility to the United Nations by less enlightened Americans is very sad. The UN is, of course, an imperfect mechanism, but it still has the potential to do a great deal of good in the world. It has no military power, of course, and its members act so as to keep things that way. As a result, when the United States acts to sabotage its good works, it cannot act effectively. Very sad.

[Robert_S]

I think this hostility to the United Nations by less enlightened Americans is very sad. The UN is, of course, an imperfect mechanism, but it still has the potential to do a great deal of good in the world. It has no military power, of course, and its members act so as to keep things that way. As a result, when the United States acts to sabotage its good works, it cannot act effectively. Very sad.

I respect a lot of what the UN does, but not everything. If they say you can't take the piss on religion are you going to respect that too?

Here, a lot of us take the right to bear arms very seriously. For one, even some of us who don't particularly like guns get nervous seeing the Bill of Rights getting chipped away at.

Also, outlawing something and actually getting rid of something are two very distinct things. Think Prohibition. Chicago still hasn't recovered from the institutionalised corruption that the Prohibition era ushered in and we haven't even chipped into the drug trade that much. I imagine those same cocaine and undocumented worker importation networks would love another commodity.

And then there is just not liking the government, or anyone else, dictating what we can and cannot do. It chafes us. I'd love to see fewer supersize junk food items consumed. But I just don't like anyone telling me I cant have one.

Lastly, to say something isn't a right merely because the UN doesn't say it is can be taken as just a little insulting.

[Blind groper]

I respect a lot of what the UN does, but not everything. If they say you can't take the piss on religion are you going to respect that too?

Robert

I already pointed out that it is an imperfect organisation, but that just says, to me, that it needs our support to achieve its potential as a force for improving the human condition. The religion thing seems to be a bit of a red herring, since the UN stands for religious tolerance, which includes tolerance for us non believers also.

Lastly, to say something isn't a right merely because the UN doesn't say it is can be taken as just a little insulting.

As I have said repeatedly, there are no rights. There are just government permitted privileges. This belief in "rights" as having some independent existence apart from the human mind and the human imagination, is religious in nature. If you do not believe in a deity, you should not believe in human rights as having some special status.

However, I do support these government permitted privileges, when they are rational. As I said before, the best set of them is the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights. We should all support that as the standard for the whole world.

[Seabass]

I never had any desire to own a gun until I was exposed to Blind Groper's incessant anti-gun, anti-American ranting. Now I kinda want a rocket launcher.

[JimC]

I think this hostility to the United Nations by less enlightened Americans is very sad. The UN is, of course, an imperfect mechanism, but it still has the potential to do a great deal of good in the world. It has no military power, of course, and its members act so as to keep things that way. As a result, when the United States acts to sabotage its good works, it cannot act effectively. Very sad.

What is weirder is the completely irrational fear by elements of the US right wing that the UN has a secret, evil plan to interfere with the internal politics of the US, forcing it to give up precious freedoms such as the right to bear arms...

This is, of course, in the same breath as declaring it to be a toothless tiger in other respects.

One of the nuttier conspiracy theories, usually involving the delusion of black helicopters and secret world governments...

[Robert_S]

I never had any desire to own a gun until I was exposed to Blind Groper's incessant anti-gun, anti-American ranting. Now I kinda want a rocket launcher.

Fishfight!!!!!

[Blind groper]

If Seabass wishes to become another Seth, then it will affect me the same way. Water off the old duck's back.

[Seabass]

If Seabass wishes to become another Seth, then it will affect me the same way. Water off the old duck's back.

I have no wish to become another Seth; I just want to shoot you with a rocket launcher.

[Robert_S]

If Seabass wishes to become another Seth, then it will affect me the same way. Water off the old duck's back.

I have no wish to become another Seth; I just want to shoot you with a rocket launcher.

You've been puling out the old Bruce Cockburn records again, haven't you.

[mistermack]

If Seabass wishes to become another Seth, then it will affect me the same way. Water off the old duck's back.

I have no wish to become another Seth; I just want to shoot you with a rocket launcher.

I have several of those, if you're interested.
We use milk bottles round here.

[Blind groper]

I have no wish to become another Seth; I just want to shoot you with a rocket launcher.

Coulda fooled me. That is a damn good imitation.

[Seabass]

I have no wish to become another Seth; I just want to shoot you with a rocket launcher.

Coulda fooled me. That is a damn good imitation.

I don't really want to shoot you with a rocket launcher, silly. I'd totally shoot you in the ass with a BB gun though.

[Blind groper]

Seabass

That is still not nice.
I have suspected for a long time that gun culture in America is like soccer culture in Britain, and Rugby culture in my country. That is : to enthusiasts, it goes beyond being a hobby and becomes a kind of religion. Like other religions, the adherents get really annoyed when someone attacks it.

I have come under attack from Seth, Gallstones, and now you. Interesting, since all I have done is attack the widespread use of hand guns, and the devastation it creates.

If there is one thing worse than attacking your religion, though, it is attacking it successfully. I have done my research and offered up good data. My reward is hostility. Well, that is life.

[Jason]

I have done my research and offered up good data.

I'm sorry, but


'good data'? 'research'?



You have the argumentation skills of a third-rate creotard and the research skills to match. I've already pointed out the many, many, times you've employed disingenuous tactics, made sweeping generalizations, cherry picked data, misrepresented studies, attempted to 'poison the well', attacked the person instead of the argument and claimed a point in your favour, ignored the countless times your reasoning has been refuted, ignored the countless times your 'good data' has been debunked, and the way you continue banging on the same way, with the same reasoning, and with the same data just the same.

I don't seriously engage with you because you're a fraud. You call me a 'shit-stirrer', but that's all this thread and your arguments are worth.

So one more time: