"Makers vs. Takers" and why it's dangerous

[Drewish]

If it's makers that are the heroes of the right, then they should have no objection to a 100% death tax.

After all, people who inherit vast fortunes didn't make it. So no maker loses, when the state takes it.

Put all the money into educating the children of the poorest. So that they will end up as makers, not takers.








(no makers were harmed in making this message).

No because then there would be even more incentive for the poor and less mentally capable to reproduce on everyone else's dime. Starvation isn't a flaw of capitalism, it's a feature and the fact that we don't let the poor starve to death is a big factor in the dumbing down of society at large.

[JimC]

And it's Cali in a knockdown!

[mistermack]

No because then there would be even more incentive for the poor and less mentally capable to reproduce on everyone else's dime. Starvation isn't a flaw of capitalism, it's a feature and the fact that we don't let the poor starve to death is a big factor in the dumbing down of society at large.

You obviously know nothing about evolution, or genetics. Clearly the ideal person to formulate a race improvement policy.

[pErvinalia]

Yep. Social Darwinism. As sick now as it was when the Nazi's were advocating it. Your views are sociopathic, Drewish.

[Drewish]

Evolution will apply to humanity regardless of whether you want it to. Half the population doesn't believe in evolution. The other half thinks it's true, but evil. Survival of the fittest is the natural law. Fight against it all you want, but the societies that embrace social darwinism will out compete those that do not.

[macdoc]

Wrong - you are focusing far too much on the individual when in fact cooperative societies in nature fare extremely well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociable_Weaver

Bees and ants and corals just to name a few that have been spectacularly successful over time in a cooperating society.

Human evolution in it's biological sense is far outweighed by other factors prompting changes in the way we interface with the rest of the biome and planetary systems.
We CAN tinker by choice already both on a personal and a societal basis - soon our silicon interfaces will accelerate change that is not based on the same principles as evolution as a random walk but instead is a managed process ( tho not in all cases will there be successful outcomes ).

Ever wonder why there are no libby societies?

[Drewish]

Conflating cooperation with government bombing, robbing, and jailing people in the name of the public good won't win you the debate. Say something that makes me think I'm not wasting my time.

[pErvinalia]

@mac... I hear there's one in Somalia. Survival of the fittest is in full swing over there. I'm sure Drewish is in the process of moving there.

[Ian]

"Collectivism forgets that life is individual. Libertarianism forgets than life is social. The kingdom of brotherhood is found in a higher synthesis, one that that combines the truths of both."
-Updating an old quote from Martin Luther King jr.

[Warren Dew]

No, the people who think the likes of RMoney and the Rethuglicons are seeking to return us all to serfdom, are the people who read the evidence, Seth. Which the R-thugs have provided themselves in quantity.

Only if you're a Dumbocrat who thinks the Obama campaign's propaganda constitutes "evidence".

[Warren Dew]

Bees and ants and corals just to name a few that have been spectacularly successful over time in a cooperating society.

And those societies don't have any takers. Even the drones have a reproductive purpose, and die after fulfilling that purpose.

[macdoc]

Say something that makes me think I'm not wasting my time.

You are wasting time....
not up to me to shift a mistaken world view - that's your problem and only incidentally the rest of societies.

There will always be predators who don't get the soci in society. Even Henry Ford understood he had to pay his workers enough to buy his products and Kellog understood the need to see his workforce through adversity.

Sometime get out in the world and visit Denmark, Norway or Sweden and see what a modern social state looks like and how pleased their citizens are.

The US and you are completely at odds with the OECD nations and not even civilized enough to recognize the importance of UHC to society as a whole.
Instead you celebrate predation. Sucks big time.
Your meme is a losing one and the election showed it.
Defections of moderate Republicans simply reinforce how out of step the current right wing mindset is with the world and sensible people in the US as well.
Your chosen party is bunch of wingdings of monumental ignorance. More's the pity.

What you don't seem to get is society works as a whole.....you want to posit divide that is not there in reality.

Some humans have a higher tolerance for risk and some less. It takes both...that's what you don't get.

[Calilasseia]

No, the people who think the likes of RMoney and the Rethuglicons are seeking to return us all to serfdom, are the people who read the evidence, Seth. Which the R-thugs have provided themselves in quantity.

Only if you're a Dumbocrat who thinks the Obama campaign's propaganda constitutes "evidence".

Ha ha. You're funny. Heard of Gary North, have you? He's the author of this little piece. In that piece, he argues that the poor deserve what's coming to them because they don't conform to Dominonist doctrine.

Also, there was a nice interview conducted in 1985 by Danuta Soderman, co-host on Pat Robertson's 700 Club, in which she interviewed a certain Dr Walter Williams. Here's a key part of that interview, in which plans to destroy healthcare provision for those without platinum Amex cards were discussed:

Williams: “Well, I think that the abuse and fraud in and of itself is a relatively minor problem. That is, the bigger problem is the whole concept of funding somebody’s medical care by a third party. And I might also mention here, that is, I saw in the audience many older and senior citizens. Now whose responsibility is it to take care of those people? I think it lies with their children and it also lies with themselves. That is, I think Christians should recognize that charity is good. I mean charity, when you reach into your pocket to help your fellow man for medical care or for food or to give them housing. But what the government is doing in order to help these older citizens is not charity at all. It is theft. That is, the government is using power to confiscate property that belongs to one American and give, or confiscate their money, and provide services for another set of Americans to whom it does not belong. That is the moral question that Christians should face with not only Medicare, Medicaid. But many other programs as well….Well, people should have insurance. But I would say if our fellow man is found in need, does not have enough, well that’s a role for the church, that’s a role for the family, that’s a role for private institutions to take care of these things.”

Danuta Soderman: “I thought it was interesting you talked about Medicare and Medicaid as not being a moral issue. A lot of people would think that to want to eliminate the program is rather uncompassionate—that there is something immoral about taking away something that people are relying so heavily upon, but you said that there is no moral issue here.”

Williams: “I think the moral issue runs the other way. That is, we have to ask ourselves, ‘What is the moral basis of confiscating the property of one American and giving it to another American to whom it does not belong for whatever reason?’ That is, I think we Americans have to ask ourselves is there something that can justify a legalized theft? And I think that even if the person is starving in the street that act, in and of itself, doesn’t justify my taking money from somebody else.”

That interview was conducted a good while before Obama was on the scene. So much for your attempt to portray this as "Obama's campaign propaganda".

Even better, how about North's apologetics for the reintroduction of slavery? Taken from that article I linked to above:

At the other end of the curve, the poor man who steals is eventually caught and sold into bondage under a successful person. His victim receives payment; he receives training; his buyer receives a stream of labor services. If the servant is successful and buys his way out of bondage, he re-enters society as a disciplined man, and presumably a self-disciplined man. He begins to accumulate wealth.

He cites Deuteronomy 28 as a justification for this.

"Obama campaign propagandas" my ass.

[Drewish]

Conflating fiscal realism with religious idiocy is a non-started. I can say "Fuck the poor!" loudly and proudly without believing in ancient myths.

[Calilasseia]

The point being that people like Pat Robertson and Gary North don't. They think they're on a mission from Magic Man to turn America into a playground for the rich, and a concentration camp for the rest. They've been rather more embarrassingly up-front about this than you might like.