The rising cost of health insurance.

[Animavore]

Oh look. More lies.

[Coito ergo sum]

I really don't think they understand how good the health system really is over here

Um....because the data shows that we pay far more than other developed countries and get worse care as a result.

That isn't true. We don't get "worse care as a result" - the US is among the best health care systems in the world as far as delivery of care and quality of care.

Your link referred to OECD data -- and I almost can't be arsed to educate you on this because you don't want to learn, you just want to pretend you know. You cite a random link you googled and take it at face value. But, let me try -- first, please actually go read the OECD reports and find out what they're based on.

The OECD uses mortality metrics to measure health care system performance, but these data do not adequately or accurately indicate or show health status differences and do not accurately judge health care system efficiency. It is not a measure of the efficiency, quality or delivery of health care services. The OECD uses "mortality measures" as a proxy for health status and health care output, rather than the consumption of health services. The OECD uses infant mortality, life expectancy, and premature death as measures of mortality, and these are not adquate or accurate measures. The basic definition of infant mortality is not the same from country to country. E.g. babies who are not viable and who die quickly after birth are more likely to be classified as stillbirths in countries outside the United States. So, that factors into the US being ranked with a higher infant mortality rate. In the United States, nonviable births are often recorded as live births, making the US infant mortality rate appear misleadingly high. Since this "infant mortality" is one of the factors used by the OECD in measuring quality of health care, even you should see how if this factor is higher for the US because of such a categorization disparity, that it will falsely skew the numbers. If you actually care about the truth, you will at least acknowledge that.

The US also uses substantially more neonatal intensive care units than other industrialized countries, and more effort is expended in the US to try to save babies with poor survival chances at the natal and neonatal stages. This additional health care actually worsens reported infant mortality rates and misleadingly suggest poor care in the United States. Similarly, US physicians are more likely to resuscitate very small premature babies, many of whom nevertheless die and many others of whom live with serious and expensive medical problems. This practice also raises measured infant mortality rates for the United States. Again, since this is a factor used by the OECD as a proxy to determine quality of health care, it is obviously going to skew the metrics.

That's the kind of thing wrong with the entire OECD study.

The other study, that people often rely on is the UN study that ranked the US below the Dominican Republic. But, since you didn't bring it up, I'll assume you either don't know about it, or you don't rely on it (which is good, because it is as bad or worse as the OECD study).

A while back I visited a doctor and he said he noticed a blip on an EKG reading - I ended up with a battery of tests, including being prescribed a cardiac MRI. I scheduled the MRI and was in getting it done in 3 working days. Three days.

How did you pay for that?

The same as almost everyone else -- health insurance.

[Jason]

Complete bullshit Seth. Sure, there are places in the States where you can get the best healthcare available, if you can afford it. But overall the Canadian (and possibly the Obamacare) system is far more economically efficient and delivers a high quality of service. It's not perfect, there are problems, but nothing compared to the current system in place in the US.

[Seth]

Complete bullshit Seth. Sure, there are places in the States where you can get the best healthcare available, if you can afford it.

TANSTAAFL

But overall the Canadian (and possibly the Obamacare) system is far more economically efficient and delivers a high quality of service. It's not perfect, there are problems, but nothing compared to the current system in place in the US.

Bullshit. Canadians flee from Canada to the U.S. every day to get advanced, timely medical care that they have been denied in Canada.

[Coito ergo sum]

Complete bullshit Seth. Sure, there are places in the States where you can get the best healthcare available, if you can afford it. But overall the Canadian (and possibly the Obamacare) system is far more economically efficient and delivers a high quality of service. It's not perfect, there are problems, but nothing compared to the current system in place in the US.

Evidence? Or, are you just reading the talking points?

[Jason]

I have to go, but do a google search. There are plenty of articles on how the Canadian model is more efficient while the American model offers high quality care to the select few that can afford it. I don't know about the UKs NHS.

[mistermack]

Yep. Like Mrs. Lak's cousin in the UK, diagnosed with bowel cancer about 6 months ago. Had to wait for 3 months to get "funding" for an MRI. When she finally got it, shit, it had spread. Now, they did get her into surgery fairly quickly (10 more weeks but who's counting). Only had to take her vagina, cervix, ovaries, large intestine, rectum and a few other bits an bobs. She gets to shit in a bag forever, never have sex again, and very likely die but that's OK, because, you know, sometimes bad things happen to good people. Not the fault of the system, no, it's the most fair and egalitarian system ever devised.

No question, single payer is the way to go.

We supposed to take your word for all that?

I have a cousin in the US who's husband had a good job, and full company health insurance. Got sick, couldn't work, health cover ran out, the whole family is chipping in to pay huge sums up front for his health care. It's lucky there were TEN kids in that family.
And he did everything right. What a shithouse. He would be fully covered for everything here. What's the point of a system that runs out when you get sick?

[Seth]

Yep. Like Mrs. Lak's cousin in the UK, diagnosed with bowel cancer about 6 months ago. Had to wait for 3 months to get "funding" for an MRI. When she finally got it, shit, it had spread. Now, they did get her into surgery fairly quickly (10 more weeks but who's counting). Only had to take her vagina, cervix, ovaries, large intestine, rectum and a few other bits an bobs. She gets to shit in a bag forever, never have sex again, and very likely die but that's OK, because, you know, sometimes bad things happen to good people. Not the fault of the system, no, it's the most fair and egalitarian system ever devised.

No question, single payer is the way to go.

We supposed to take your word for all that?

I have a cousin in the US who's husband had a good job, and full company health insurance. Got sick, couldn't work, health cover ran out, the whole family is chipping in to pay huge sums up front for his health care. It's lucky there were TEN kids in that family.
And he did everything right. What a shithouse. He would be fully covered for everything here. What's the point of a system that runs out when you get sick?

He should have read the insurance contract, and no, he would not be fully covered there, you just think he would be, but that's a lie that you've bought into.

Your own government is admitting it's an economic disaster and is trying to back out.

[Gerald McGrew]

That isn't true. We don't get "worse care as a result" - the US is among the best health care systems in the world as far as delivery of care and quality of care.

Yes we do. First, I'll acknowledge that you don't dispute that we pay far more than other developed countries.

Lastly, you didn't read the link.

"In addition, the U.S. has high rates of avoidable hospital admissions for people with chronic conditions, such as asthma, lung disease, diabetes and hypertension, the report noted...

OECD also said the U.S. has an "underdeveloped" primary care system worsened by physician shortages (Reuters, 11/23). There are 2.4 physicians for every 1,000 people in the U.S., compared with an average of 3.1 in other countries. In addition, there are 3.1 hospital beds per 1,000 people in the U.S., compared with 4.9 per 1,000 in other countries (CQ HealthBeat, 11/23).

Physician fees in the U.S. are more than double the average fees among OECD nations, while costs for medications and hospital services cost about 60% more in the U.S. than the average. Certain procedures, including MRI scans and knee replacement surgeries, also have higher-than-average costs in the U.S. The report found that U.S. patients face higher prices for care but do not necessarily spend more time in the hospital than patients in other OECD countries (National Journal, 11/23)."

The same as almost everyone else -- health insurance.

So given that 45-50 million Americans are uninsured, what do they do? OCED also found: "Of the 30 countries in the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development, only Mexico and Turkey have a higher uninsured rate than the United States".

http://www.acog.org/Resources%20And%20P ... sured.aspx

But honestly, if you want to sit here and argue that the US has a wonderful health care system compared to the rest of the developed world, I'll let that speak for itself.

[Seth]

So given that 45-50 million Americans are uninsured, what do they do?

Take care of themselves and pay for their medical care in cash, a la carte, like I do, at a SUBSTANTIAL (about 40%) discount off the prime insurance rate. I'm uninsured because I WANT to be uninsured. It's way cheaper. It would be more than four times as expensive for me to have insurance, and I'd be paying that even if I didn't ever need to use the policy. As it is, I take care of myself, manage my own medical care, stay informed and go in once a year to get my prescriptions renewed and have an appointment when it's absolutely necessary for me to do so. My monthly medical bills are quite small as compared to what I had to pay for insurance when I still had it under COBRA after quitting my job with the state.

I don't want insurance, and I don't want to pay for YOUR medical care or insurance either. You're on your own.

[Jason]

I am now drunk. I know this puts us on even intellectual footing, but I'll defer my devastating critique of your tour de merde until I'm sober.


.. it may be a while.

[Kristie]

So given that 45-50 million Americans are uninsured, what do they do?

Take care of themselves and pay for their medical care in cash, a la carte, like I do, at a SUBSTANTIAL (about 40%) discount off the prime insurance rate. I'm uninsured because I WANT to be uninsured. It's way cheaper. It would be more than four times as expensive for me to have insurance, and I'd be paying that even if I didn't ever need to use the policy. As it is, I take care of myself, manage my own medical care, stay informed and go in once a year to get my prescriptions renewed and have an appointment when it's absolutely necessary for me to do so. My monthly medical bills are quite small as compared to what I had to pay for insurance when I still had it under COBRA after quitting my job with the state.

I don't want insurance, and I don't want to pay for YOUR medical care or insurance either. You're on your own.

I certainly hope you never end up with cancer or need extensive surgery. Unless you have quite a chuck of change sitting around, you'd be screwed. That's why it's called 'insurance'.

[hadespussercats]

Jesus, free healthcare isn't really that hard.

Just work out the insurance premium for a nation, budget for it, then collect it in taxes.

The end.

Except of course you can't do that because each person has different and changing medical needs which are entirely unpredictable and change quickly, and therefore central planning will ALWAYS fail to allocate resources properly, leading (as it does in the UK and elsewhere) to shortages, surpluses, waste, fraud, sub-standard care, denied care, delayed care, unavailable care and all the myriad other ills suffered by every single socialized medical care plan on the planet.

Doesn't work. Never has, never will, and it inevitably leads to national bankruptcy, as it's doing in the UK right now.

How is that different from the situation with private insurance, though?

[Tyrannical]

You can have healthcare pretty cheap, as long as you stick to expired patent drugs. Any prescription would cost just a few dollars.

[Coito ergo sum]

I have to go, but do a google search. There are plenty of articles on how the Canadian model is more efficient while the American model offers high quality care to the select few that can afford it. I don't know about the UKs NHS.

No thanks. You can support your own positions.