"Makers vs. Takers" and why it's dangerous

[Seth]

I agree that the demonization of the poor is a stupid thing to do and it's being done for slimy political ends. There is some truth to it, though.

Fuck that, Lak. There's far worse sucking at the government teat going on at the top end of town. The numbers fucking dwarf anything the poor are involved in. When the pigs get their fat snouts out of the trough, then i'll campaign for the tiny percentage of scroungers at the bottom end to get their shit together.

Fuck.

Surprisingly, I almost completely agree with you. Rip the fat-cat cronys from the teat right now. If you can't make a go of it financially without government assistance, then you're just fucked, as you should be. No welfare for ANYONE I say.

Of course the problem is it's not a "tiny percentage of scroungers at the bottom end," it's about 47 percent of the population...or more...who receive some kind of direct government assistance. That's exactly why Obama was reelected. As Alexander Tytler said more than two hundred years ago, (and I paraphrase here) the dependent class has overtaken the productive class and is now all about voting themselves largess from the public treasury and have, and will continue to elect those who promise them the most largess.

Obama didn't win this election, Romney lost it...and the Republic...all at the same time, because he dared to tell people the truth about our economic crisis: that we can't afford to give people free Obamastuff anymore, and they are going to have to suck it up and endure on their own, so get to work.

[Seth]

rEv, did you miss my post about bailing out banks and companies? Fuck them, let them fail. Subsidies to oil companies? Fuck that, let the prices rise. I want the sucking to stop from top to bottom. Shit, I'm a Libertarian, I don't want ANY government money going to private industry outside contracts and purchases.

Want to tax rich people? I don't care, go for it, they mean nothing to me. But the whole tax the rich and fix the problem meme is bullshit, a few percentage points on people earning a mil or more isn't going to do shit, it's a political ploy, a feel-good sop to the people that are REALLY going to get it in the neck, the middle class. Repealing the Bush tax cuts is going to hurt the poor and middle class far more than it's going to hurt the rich, do you think it's going to make a difference to Romney or Trump if their marginal rate is 4 or 5 percentage points higher? Not a chance, they'll just hire another bank of tax accountants. The people it's going to hurt are the folks who can't afford tax accountants, for whom an additional 3 or 4 or 5 grand a year is a major hit. And subsidizing their health insurance premiums isn't going to make up for it.

I honestly don't care how much free shit we give to people. We want single payer, fine. We want free university, fine. Fuck, free pizza and beer every Friday, it's fine with me. But - don't fucking BORROW money to do it. Raise the tax rates. We have to live within our means and stop mortgaging my kid's future. That's what we're doing with these spend spend spend policies. It isn't just Obama, though he's certainly added his fair share. Bush spent money like a drunk sailor on Patpong road.

The whole system is FUBAR.

[pErvinalia]

I agree that the demonization of the poor is a stupid thing to do and it's being done for slimy political ends. There is some truth to it, though. I do think that if you're farting about on the internet on your smart phone or watching pay-per-view on your 60 inch flat screen you don't need food stamps. It's a question of priorities, and an inability to prioritize is something I see as a major problem. It certainly isn't just poor people. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who overextended and bought ginormous houses that ate up half of their income and now can't make the payments. My daughters do it - can't pay their car insurance because they have to have the latest cell phone or that really cute pair of boots. I got suckered into cosigning a car loan for my oldest - free advice here - don't do that.

I don't know what the answer is, doing something like any of those things simply never would have occurred to me. How did I manage to end up with a surfeit of self-discipline and so many people simply have none? I tried to raise my kids as much like I was raised as possible, they went to decent schools and got a reasonable education. So what's the difference?

How about the answer is that poor people should be "made uncomfortable in their poverty" in order to stimulate them to personal achievement and economic success. Ben Franklin recommended that more than 200 years ago.

If you're so desperately poor that you need food stamps, then you should be required to stand in a bread line two or three times a day and be thankful for the soup and crust you get.

You're a sociopath.

I don't agree with EBT cards that can be used to buy luxuries or vices rather than food. I think those who do not want to work should be humiliated and scorned by making a public spectacle of them so that they will be induced to go to work and become honest, tax-paying citizens. They should not be given the luxury of sitting around in their rent-controlled public housing apartment eating Twinkies, smoking crack and watching Dr. Phil on their aforesaid flatscreen TV with 160 cable channels.

Who are these hordes of people? Sounds like the creation of a sensationalist media and a paranoid mind.

At the very least they should have to get off their asses three times a day to go stand in line at the soup kitchen, where they can be handed a list of employers looking for unskilled menial laborers before they get fed...after they turn in their chits from the aforesaid employers who have refused them work after they went and applied that day.

Apparently you are not aware of your country's unemployment statistics.

Now, the disabled who are UNABLE to work, that's an entirely different thing.

Why? You're all for social darwinism on the one hand, why not go the whole enchilada?

[pErvinalia]

I agree that the demonization of the poor is a stupid thing to do and it's being done for slimy political ends. There is some truth to it, though.

Fuck that, Lak. There's far worse sucking at the government teat going on at the top end of town. The numbers fucking dwarf anything the poor are involved in. When the pigs get their fat snouts out of the trough, then i'll campaign for the tiny percentage of scroungers at the bottom end to get their shit together.

Fuck.

Surprisingly, I almost completely agree with you. Rip the fat-cat cronys from the teat right now. If you can't make a go of it financially without government assistance, then you're just fucked, as you should be. No welfare for ANYONE I say.

Of course the problem is it's not a "tiny percentage of scroungers at the bottom end," it's about 47 percent of the population...or more...who receive some kind of direct government assistance. That's exactly why Obama was reelected.

You are an idiot.

[Seth]

I agree that the demonization of the poor is a stupid thing to do and it's being done for slimy political ends. There is some truth to it, though.

Fuck that, Lak. There's far worse sucking at the government teat going on at the top end of town. The numbers fucking dwarf anything the poor are involved in. When the pigs get their fat snouts out of the trough, then i'll campaign for the tiny percentage of scroungers at the bottom end to get their shit together.

Fuck.

Surprisingly, I almost completely agree with you. Rip the fat-cat cronys from the teat right now. If you can't make a go of it financially without government assistance, then you're just fucked, as you should be. No welfare for ANYONE I say.

Of course the problem is it's not a "tiny percentage of scroungers at the bottom end," it's about 47 percent of the population...or more...who receive some kind of direct government assistance. That's exactly why Obama was reelected.

You are an idiot.

No, you are.

[pErvinalia]

[Seth]

I agree that the demonization of the poor is a stupid thing to do and it's being done for slimy political ends. There is some truth to it, though. I do think that if you're farting about on the internet on your smart phone or watching pay-per-view on your 60 inch flat screen you don't need food stamps. It's a question of priorities, and an inability to prioritize is something I see as a major problem. It certainly isn't just poor people. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who overextended and bought ginormous houses that ate up half of their income and now can't make the payments. My daughters do it - can't pay their car insurance because they have to have the latest cell phone or that really cute pair of boots. I got suckered into cosigning a car loan for my oldest - free advice here - don't do that.

I don't know what the answer is, doing something like any of those things simply never would have occurred to me. How did I manage to end up with a surfeit of self-discipline and so many people simply have none? I tried to raise my kids as much like I was raised as possible, they went to decent schools and got a reasonable education. So what's the difference?

How about the answer is that poor people should be "made uncomfortable in their poverty" in order to stimulate them to personal achievement and economic success. Ben Franklin recommended that more than 200 years ago.

If you're so desperately poor that you need food stamps, then you should be required to stand in a bread line two or three times a day and be thankful for the soup and crust you get.

You're a sociopath.

And you're a slave-boy BDSM freak who likes to be ass-fucked by bureaucrats. So there.

I don't agree with EBT cards that can be used to buy luxuries or vices rather than food. I think those who do not want to work should be humiliated and scorned by making a public spectacle of them so that they will be induced to go to work and become honest, tax-paying citizens. They should not be given the luxury of sitting around in their rent-controlled public housing apartment eating Twinkies, smoking crack and watching Dr. Phil on their aforesaid flatscreen TV with 160 cable channels.

Who are these hordes of people? Sounds like the creation of a sensationalist media and a paranoid mind.

The ones who pay no taxes and get welfare payments.

At the very least they should have to get off their asses three times a day to go stand in line at the soup kitchen, where they can be handed a list of employers looking for unskilled menial laborers before they get fed...after they turn in their chits from the aforesaid employers who have refused them work after they went and applied that day.

Apparently you are not aware of your country's unemployment statistics.

Very aware. There's at least 12 million jobs for Americans to take that are now held by illegal aliens. Problem is the laid-off unemployed aren't going to get off their fat asses and go take those jobs because they are "beneath" their dignity. They would much rather cut back and enjoy regular unemployment checks than go work at the jobs that are available. The same dynamic is at work in the UK, where the unemployed prefer to be on the dole because it gives them lots of leisure time to drink down to the pub and smoke crack with their mates, and so the UK has to import Pakis and Muslims from all over to get the scut work done.

Hunger is a great motivator to the indolent and idle, we should make use of it.

Now, the disabled who are UNABLE to work, that's an entirely different thing.

Why? You're all for social darwinism on the one hand, why not go the whole enchilada?

Because those who are disabled and are unable to work and support themselves are worthy of our charity and altruism. Those who will not work and instead prefer to suck at the public teat can starve in a ditch for all I care. I have no moral obligation to support them in their idleness.

[Tero]

There's at least 12 million jobs for Americans to take that are now held by illegal aliens. Problem is the laid-off unemployed aren't going to get off their fat asses and go take those jobs because they are "beneath" their dignity.

It's not so much that, it's shit money. But 12 Mexicans living in a 1 bedroom apartment save a little to send home. And live on beans.

[laklak]

Mexican's LOVE beans.

[pErvinalia]

What Seth fails to realise is that those 12 million jobs are only viable because of the shit wages they pay them. When you pay them the (only slightly more civilised) US minimum wage, then those 12 million jobs become far less. It's just another bit of distraction tactics by Seth to avoid having to address the specious nonsense he bleats out.

[Drewish]

As technology advances we can care for more people. Simultaneously we need fewer and fewer people to actually do the work as processes are automated. Further more we need intelligent analytical people to manage and improve on the systems that do the work, further restricting the desirable jobs. There will of course be a need for service work and factory style labor, but those jobs will become increasingly unskilled and the work force available will far exceed the positions, meaning that cheap expendable manual labor will be the norm. So basically, if you're an intelligent person with access to education, get ready to enjoy the spoils of capitalism and the good life. If not, shrivel up and die now because nobody wants or needs you. Such is the indifferent 'progress' of capitalism.

I am totally okay with this.

[Svartalf]

I agree that the demonization of the poor is a stupid thing to do and it's being done for slimy political ends. There is some truth to it, though. I do think that if you're farting about on the internet on your smart phone or watching pay-per-view on your 60 inch flat screen you don't need food stamps. It's a question of priorities, and an inability to prioritize is something I see as a major problem. It certainly isn't just poor people. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who overextended and bought ginormous houses that ate up half of their income and now can't make the payments. My daughters do it - can't pay their car insurance because they have to have the latest cell phone or that really cute pair of boots. I got suckered into cosigning a car loan for my oldest - free advice here - don't do that.

I don't know what the answer is, doing something like any of those things simply never would have occurred to me. How did I manage to end up with a surfeit of self-discipline and so many people simply have none? I tried to raise my kids as much like I was raised as possible, they went to decent schools and got a reasonable education. So what's the difference?

does your oldest give you free taxi service at least?

[laklak]

No, but she babysits the dogs for free.

She's for sale, BTW.

[Svartalf]

I need a wife that will MAKE money, not fritter it out, I do that quite well myself.

[Tero]

If the 47% only pay soc sec fica, city tax and state tax, what difference can the Bush tax cuts make? Bush was president 8 years, the only jobs he created were in iraq.