Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

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Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

Post by Rum » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:55 pm

One of the main Buddhist goals is to 'still the mind'. I don't know about you but mine races, pops, jumps and skitters all over the place. It is fucking exhausting sometimes!

So why didn't we evolve the ability just to go mentally into neutral now and again?

Or is it just me?

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Re: Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

Post by Pappa » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:03 pm

I don't think we have a great deal of control over our own decision making (and as such I don't really believe we have free will), so I think it's just an extension of that.
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Re: Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:04 pm

Did they really mean to stop thinking though? I can imagine a still mind thinking deeply.
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Re: Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

Post by Pappa » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:08 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:Did they really mean to stop thinking though? I can imagine a still mind thinking deeply.
It depends on the specific type of meditation. In some types, the goal is to slow and stop thoughts completely, usually by first observing the thoughts as they arise. Other forms are about focusing on certain thoughts or concepts.
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Re: Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

Post by Rum » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:20 pm

Well one tradition has it that if the mind is totally still it can then experience so called enlightenment. My reading (pretty extensive over the years) is that once you do still the mind a sort of universal consciousness can be experienced. My reading also tells me that this is probably woo but who knows.

However there do seem to be benefits in terms of relaxation, peace of mind and the like to be gained from some of these Buddhist practices, particularly mind stilling meditation.

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Re: Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

Post by rasetsu » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:47 pm




I'm seeing confusion and equivocation of terms.

Stopping thoughts and stopping thinking are not necessarily the same. One aspect of meditation is that physical stimuli, like an itch on your knee, as well as aural stimuli, sounds, and visual stimuli (depending on the type of meditation), are all meant to be detached from. The two times that I experienced samadhi, the most salient aspect of it was the loss of any sensation of time; two minutes was as twenty, and twenty as two hours. Yet I was aware of something, or what was I aware of in being aware I was not aware of time? Philosophers refer to the concept of intensionality, with an 's', being that consciousness is always 'about something' — the television, the sound of rain falling, the concept of prime number. Sometimes, people suppose that consciousness has the ability to be self-reflective, to be its own intension, for it to 'be about' itself, and reflect on that, and so on to several levels. What I think is occurring there is badly performed phenomenological analysis, combined with confusion about our ability to have 'a theory of mind', for example, about what someone else is thinking, or what Jane may think about Miko thinking about Suki. We can include ourselves in those multiple levels of theory of mind, "That's just what they'll be expecting us to do." (See Jesse Bering, The Belief Instinct.) So the idea that consciousness can reflect upon itself, is, I think incorrect. We can reflect upon models of thought, and upon those, to multiple levels (about 5-7 levels for the average adult). But we're not actually reflecting on consciousness qua consciousness when we do. I do think there is another level to our intensionality, however. We are not only aware of the table, we most times are aware that we are aware of the table. This is not always true, as Sartre's example of 'running for the bus' and automatic driving indicate, as well as lucid dreaming, in which we're aware of the fact that we're dreaming, though that awareness in lucid dreaming is somewhat qualitatively different. I am persuaded, as well, that we complete the matrix, and possess things that we are aware of, without being aware that we are aware in other ways. Blindsight is the classic example of this, wherein a person has no visual experience of part of their visual field, yet can report on events in that field. I believe this is more than a curiousity brought out by a malfunction, but a bedrock part of the conscious mind that is experienced by normal subjects with respect to multiple things. (I won't bore you with examples, other than to note that this is where I disagree with the Buddha and the doctrine of Anatta, or no-self; I believe the self is a cognitive model, actually a specific example of a model that recurs in multiple contexts in the mind (in one common other context, it may be labeled as 'a narrative structure' or 'a fictional character'); however, as in blindsight, we're normally not aware that we are aware of this model or models; we can extract information from and about a specific instance, while being completely unaware of the model itself, consciously. This is where I believe the Buddha erred; not imagining that things could both be and not-be in consciousness simultaneously. When he looked for the self and didn't find it there, he concluded the idea of self referred to no-thing; but it's normal not to 'see it'; that doesn't mean it isn't there.)

Anyway, I'm going to quickly tie the bow before I forget. I would say that meditation is not about stopping thought, per se, but rather, in loose terms, stopping or changing intensionality; modulating how and whether we 'attend to things'. We still think them, whether we attend to them or not. (And other problems surface when we consider things like cognitive illusions, split-brain subjects, Anton-Babinski syndrome, hemi-neglect, alien hand syndrome, aphasias, and anasognosias, to name a few.)



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Re: Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

Post by PsychoSerenity » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:29 pm

I want to read you post rasetsu, but I'm too drunk right now. :cheers:
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

Post by Trinity » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:43 pm

I have struggled with an overactive mind most of my life, often I yearn for there to be a "blank" or "void". I remember sitting and watching a robin in the hedge once and envying it's lack of language-I constantly think in language. To be a creature that simply engages with and reacts to stimuli without a mental construct. How amazing it would be to just not have words forming, just to perceive something for what it is, maybe with accompanying emotions, but without a commentary. I have OCD though, so I guess my mind is always babbling-physiologically, my brain's wired to not shut out unnecessary/unwanted thoughts. Meditation does help with that, I've tried it, it simply comes down to, in my case, a difficulty with being patient enough to sit long enough for the effects of meditation to be realised.
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Re: Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

Post by klr » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:04 am

Why can't I stop thinking? Because I'm awake, that''s why. :sulk:
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Re: Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

Post by Tero » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:09 am

Because we are not evolved to spare energy, such as birds sitting on a wire. They are not all sleeping. Or they sleep with one side of the brain at a time. Real tricky job.

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Re: Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

Post by rasetsu » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:29 am

Trinity wrote:I have struggled with an overactive mind most of my life, often I yearn for there to be a "blank" or "void". I remember sitting and watching a robin in the hedge once and envying it's lack of language-I constantly think in language. To be a creature that simply engages with and reacts to stimuli without a mental construct. How amazing it would be to just not have words forming, just to perceive something for what it is, maybe with accompanying emotions, but without a commentary. I have OCD though, so I guess my mind is always babbling-physiologically, my brain's wired to not shut out unnecessary/unwanted thoughts. Meditation does help with that, I've tried it, it simply comes down to, in my case, a difficulty with being patient enough to sit long enough for the effects of meditation to be realised.
Because of the stochastics of the evolutionary process, a good chunk of existing consists in failing, doing unproductive things, and doing the unnecessary. This is how the evolutionary process matches up genes, capacities, and environment, and out of that mix, the examples of the species that reproduce the best and most are those that exhibit the best balance between trying and failing, trying and succeeding, and not trying. An example is in order. It's often noted that some managers overestimate the amount of control they have over situations, and may, for example, invest in a losing manufacturing plant with the belief that they can turn it around. The other end of the spectrum is those who feel they have little control, and depend on right circumstance, often ignoring opportunities by not believing they can have an effect on the situation, or change a bad situation to a good one. Now the question is, assuming some rough midpoint, is it better to over-estimate the degree of control you have, or to under-estimate it? The initial response is usually that one is no better than the other. However, this is not correct. In managing, your goal is to make the most effective use of your resources. The person who over-estimates their degree of control will, often or occasionally, fail; however they will not fail at turning opportunity to advantage in situations they've over-estimated their control over 100% of the time. The manager who under-estimates on the other hand, effectively fails 100% of the time that he does not try or attempt to turn opportunity to advantage. So it is better to over-estimate your degree of control than to underestimate it. (I have another example regarding exploration and conservatism or conservation, but some other time.)

So, in order to optimize our reproductive success, the evolutionary machinery rewards that mix of trying, failing, and not trying which maximizes the use of the animals resources as a member of a specific species, in a specific environment, given the specific capacities and vulnerabilities (or talents) of this or that particular specimen.

It's been observed that many traits that become dysfunctional in extreme measures also exist as lesser tropes in non-dysfunctional people. Checking the lock six times is dysfunctional. Occasionally going back to be sure the iron was turned off is not. Spending all one's time fantasizing instead of doing is dysfunctional. Fantasizing about how to please our partner is not. Even fantasizing about what you would have said to your boss can be healthy, if it keeps you from going back and punching him in the nose.

So as a person with OCD, you are this way because those things which are destructive in the degree they are in you, are healthy and useful in lesser measure, and to not have them at all would be the worst. So being able to move back and forth along any of these spectrums is likely a useful skill, I don't see being able to be at one end of these spectrums as unqualifiedly better than the other. It will depend a lot on the environment (whether modulating on this or that allows us to exploit some opportunity in the environment), the talents of the species (don't try to outrun a cheetah, but run, don't walk, if you encounter zombies), and the specific virtues and vices of the specimen (dumb people should probably try to be less controlling, while in line with Dunning-Kruger, perhaps the braniacs should exhibit some more initiative and balls). As always, it depends. Being one or the other isn't especially valuable, though I fully understand that you wish your particular range were further down the spectrum where non-OCD people live.

You are likely OCD just because this is the way nature works. You got too much of what otherwise is probably a good thing.

Last edited by rasetsu on Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

Post by FBM » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:35 am

I read something in Buddhist philosophy saying that one of the main functions of the brain is to think, just as the function of the heart is to pump blood, lungs to pump air, etc. It's doing what it evolved to do, so getting it to stop its internal dialog is hard. I used to do it regularly, and I was a lot calmer back then, but I won't claim direct causation there. There were other things that I was doing to maintain equanimity at that time.
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Re: Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

Post by redunderthebed » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:37 am

Interesting rum as a recovering alcoholic i used to use booze to clear my mind in the end it didn't work of course which lead to some bad consequences. Anyhoo i would fascinated to find out how to clear ones mind without drugs or alcohol i think that would be awesome havings ones cake and eating it too and be sober at the same time i think that would be awesome.
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Re: Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

Post by rasetsu » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:44 am


There is a story in Zen circles about a man and a horse. The horse is galloping quickly, and it appears that the man on the horse is going somewhere important. Another man, standing alongside the road shouts, "Where are you going?" and the first man replies, "l don't know! Ask the horse!" This is also our story. We are riding a horse, we don't know where we are going, and we can't stop. The horse is our habit energy pulling us along, and we are powerless. We are always running, and it has become a habit. We struggle all the time, even during our sleep. We are at war within ourselves, and we can easily start a war with others.
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My understanding is that yes, it is a function of the mind to think, that this is simply the nature of the skhandas and form and formlessness. However, it's not clear to me that the doctrine of dependent origination doesn't rob such notions of any possible sense or meaning. (There's a specific passage in Thich Nhat Hanh addressing your point, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.)


Last edited by rasetsu on Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why is it so difficult to stop thinking?

Post by Jason » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:47 am

Rum wrote:One of the main Buddhist goals is to 'still the mind'. I don't know about you but mine races, pops, jumps and skitters all over the place. It is fucking exhausting sometimes!

So why didn't we evolve the ability just to go mentally into neutral now and again?

Or is it just me?
I used to be able to do it with ease when I practised meditation. It requires a great deal of practise, or at least it did for me. I can still do it from time to time, but I'm out of shape mentally and it isn't so easy.

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