Guns used for lawful self defense
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FBM
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
I agree, but that's beside the point. NZ has a bigger suicide rate than the US, but you're repeatedly bashing the US for its suicide rate and blaming it on guns. Sorry that NZ or any other place has a suicide problem, but my point is that your arguments aren't panning out wrt to suicide rates.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
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"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
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Blind groper
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
FBM
I have never said that the USA had a higher than average suicide problem. What I have said is that 60% of its suicides are done with hand guns.
The thing that makes the USA unusual is the percentage of attempts that result is someone dying. That is due to the availability of hand guns. The thing is that a lot fewer people would die if those damn hand guns were not so readily available. How many people die elsewhere does not alter that basic point.
I have never said that the USA had a higher than average suicide problem. What I have said is that 60% of its suicides are done with hand guns.
The thing that makes the USA unusual is the percentage of attempts that result is someone dying. That is due to the availability of hand guns. The thing is that a lot fewer people would die if those damn hand guns were not so readily available. How many people die elsewhere does not alter that basic point.
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.
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FBM
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
And you have yet to present any scholarship to support this assertion, as far as I know. If lack of handguns prevented suicides, that should be reflected in lower suicide rates in countries such as NZ where guns aren't readily available. Or here in South Korea. People just find other ways to kill themselves. The claim that guns cause suicide is a tough one to support, and to be honest, pretty whacky sounding. If you present scholarly research instead of just opinion, I'll give it a look.Blind groper wrote:FBM
I have never said that the USA had a higher than average suicide problem. What I have said is that 60% of its suicides are done with hand guns.
The thing that makes the USA unusual is the percentage of attempts that result is someone dying. That is due to the availability of hand guns. The thing is that a lot fewer people would die if those damn hand guns were not so readily available. How many people die elsewhere does not alter that basic point.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Um.. you realise, Groper, that if your assertion has any basis in fact (I doubt that) it means that the horrendously high suicide rate in New Zealand is backed by an even higher attempted suicide rate (as the availability of handguns leads to more successful suicides yet the suicide rate in the US is far lower than NZ). So how the hell does this line of argument, in any way, point to handguns as an aggravating factor in suicide??
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Blind groper
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Pord
There are a lot more attempts at suicide on a per capita basis in NZ. So in that, you are correct.
There are two factors that determine number of suicides.
1. Number of attempts.
2. What percentage of attempts are successful.
I read several research reports on suicide a while back, and here are a few results.
The method used is critical. Some methods are very unsuccessful. For example : an overdose of sleeping pills kills only 2% of those who use this method. At the other extreme, two methods are more than 90% successful. Hand gun and jumping off a high place.
Other methods fall into the medium category. In NZ, according to the last item on suicide I read, the most common method used successfully is hanging. I presume that is because the raw materials required are readily available. In the USA, the method most tried according to NEJM means 90% involves drugs or cutting, but the method that most succeeds is hand guns. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923
The USA, as I said before, is unexceptional in terms of numbers of attempts at suicide. Many other countries are far worse. However, 60% of all American suicides are by hand gun. That makes sense, since it is one of the only two methods with over 90% killing effect.
To FBM, who has questioned my facts on suicide, I hope you read the New England Journal of Medicine reference posted above.
There are a lot more attempts at suicide on a per capita basis in NZ. So in that, you are correct.
There are two factors that determine number of suicides.
1. Number of attempts.
2. What percentage of attempts are successful.
I read several research reports on suicide a while back, and here are a few results.
The method used is critical. Some methods are very unsuccessful. For example : an overdose of sleeping pills kills only 2% of those who use this method. At the other extreme, two methods are more than 90% successful. Hand gun and jumping off a high place.
Other methods fall into the medium category. In NZ, according to the last item on suicide I read, the most common method used successfully is hanging. I presume that is because the raw materials required are readily available. In the USA, the method most tried according to NEJM means 90% involves drugs or cutting, but the method that most succeeds is hand guns. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923
The USA, as I said before, is unexceptional in terms of numbers of attempts at suicide. Many other countries are far worse. However, 60% of all American suicides are by hand gun. That makes sense, since it is one of the only two methods with over 90% killing effect.
To FBM, who has questioned my facts on suicide, I hope you read the New England Journal of Medicine reference posted above.
Last edited by Blind groper on Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
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JimC
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
This may be due to a sudden realisation that they are not Australian...Blind groper wrote:Pord
There are a lot more attempts at suicide in NZ. so in that, you are correct.
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!
And my gin!
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Blind groper
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Jim
Wash your mouth out with carbolic acid!
Wash your mouth out with carbolic acid!
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FBM
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Have you posted anything that confirms your assertion that the availability of handguns increases the number of suicides? I haven't seen it yet.
Have you posted anything that confirms your assertion that people who killed themselves with handguns wouldn't have used a different method if handguns hadn't been available? I haven't see that yet, either, and those claims seem to be the heart of your argument. Correct me if I'm wrong. I could still be misunderstanding your assertion(s).
Yes, more people in the US use handguns because they are more reliable as a means to accomplish what they have decided to do. So what? People here in Korea drink pesticides or jump from a tall building most often. Others light charcoal briquets inside their car and wait. What difference does it make which method they use? Are you trying to claim that there is a large number of people who changed their minds about killing themselves just because they didn't have a handgun available? If so, please link to some research on that. I don't see how that NEJM article addresses those most salient points.
Have you posted anything that confirms your assertion that people who killed themselves with handguns wouldn't have used a different method if handguns hadn't been available? I haven't see that yet, either, and those claims seem to be the heart of your argument. Correct me if I'm wrong. I could still be misunderstanding your assertion(s).
Yes, more people in the US use handguns because they are more reliable as a means to accomplish what they have decided to do. So what? People here in Korea drink pesticides or jump from a tall building most often. Others light charcoal briquets inside their car and wait. What difference does it make which method they use? Are you trying to claim that there is a large number of people who changed their minds about killing themselves just because they didn't have a handgun available? If so, please link to some research on that. I don't see how that NEJM article addresses those most salient points.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
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FBM
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
OK, I finally got this netbook to open the NEJM article. It does address some of those points directly. Thanks, Bg. That does change my outlook on that particular point. 
I respond much better to data rather than to rhetoric.
However, the difference between the increase in suicide rates in homes where guns are stored unloaded and locked compared to those stored loaded and unlocked is lacking. It notes that both situations increase the risk of an impulsive suicide, but it seems to gloss over how much difference there is between them*. It also doesn't address the issue from an international perspective. If, for example, Korean teens jump off high buildings impulsively, how can we be sure that American teens won't just find another impulsive way to kill themselves? The fact that there's a gun in the house just means that that's the first thing they think of, not that it's the only impulsive way to kill yourself.
*Edit: Iwent back and found that, too. It makes a big difference if the guns are stored unlocked and loaded. Which is a stupid thing to do if there are kids around.
I respond much better to data rather than to rhetoric.However, the difference between the increase in suicide rates in homes where guns are stored unloaded and locked compared to those stored loaded and unlocked is lacking. It notes that both situations increase the risk of an impulsive suicide, but it seems to gloss over how much difference there is between them*. It also doesn't address the issue from an international perspective. If, for example, Korean teens jump off high buildings impulsively, how can we be sure that American teens won't just find another impulsive way to kill themselves? The fact that there's a gun in the house just means that that's the first thing they think of, not that it's the only impulsive way to kill yourself.
*Edit: Iwent back and found that, too. It makes a big difference if the guns are stored unlocked and loaded. Which is a stupid thing to do if there are kids around.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
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Blind groper
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
To FBM
Let me commend you on graciously admitting the article has changed your view. It takes a superior person to allow data to change their minds, and an even more superior person to admit it. So thanks.
A point in the NEJM article you may like to note is the 'critical period'.
When a would-be suicide gets the impulse to kill himself/herself, there is a period, which can be a few minutes or an hour or more, in which that impulse holds. After that, the impulse disappears.
This has implications. First is that, if there is no lethal method immediately available, the impulse is likely to pass before the suicide is complete. This is probably why jumping off a high place, even though more than 90% effective, is not such a common method. The would-be suicide takes too long to get to the high place and the impulse passes. However, it also explains why hand guns are such a common method in the USA. If a hand gun is available in the home, then the suicide attempt is done, and done quickly, before the impulse can pass.
Second implication is that, if the method chosen is less lethal, like an overdose of sleeping pills, then survival is not followed by a second attempt. The person will survive. That makes having access to a hand gun doubly tragic. The hand gun means no second chance when the would-be suicide changes his/her mind, since it is immediately and totally lethal most of the time.
On data versus rhetoric, let me comment. I have, in fact, looked into this topic reasonably deeply, but that was a while ago. I do not always have the data at my fingertips, and it may be a while before I uncover it a second time. That does not mean my data is wrong.
Let me commend you on graciously admitting the article has changed your view. It takes a superior person to allow data to change their minds, and an even more superior person to admit it. So thanks.
A point in the NEJM article you may like to note is the 'critical period'.
When a would-be suicide gets the impulse to kill himself/herself, there is a period, which can be a few minutes or an hour or more, in which that impulse holds. After that, the impulse disappears.
This has implications. First is that, if there is no lethal method immediately available, the impulse is likely to pass before the suicide is complete. This is probably why jumping off a high place, even though more than 90% effective, is not such a common method. The would-be suicide takes too long to get to the high place and the impulse passes. However, it also explains why hand guns are such a common method in the USA. If a hand gun is available in the home, then the suicide attempt is done, and done quickly, before the impulse can pass.
Second implication is that, if the method chosen is less lethal, like an overdose of sleeping pills, then survival is not followed by a second attempt. The person will survive. That makes having access to a hand gun doubly tragic. The hand gun means no second chance when the would-be suicide changes his/her mind, since it is immediately and totally lethal most of the time.
On data versus rhetoric, let me comment. I have, in fact, looked into this topic reasonably deeply, but that was a while ago. I do not always have the data at my fingertips, and it may be a while before I uncover it a second time. That does not mean my data is wrong.
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.
Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
I read it, and it's bullshit when used as an excuse for banning guns. It's a good reason why families with suicidal members should lock up their guns, but as an argument for destroying the rights and safety of the other 300 million people in the US merely because a few thousand people succeed in killing themselves with handguns it is asinine and ridiculous.Blind groper wrote:
The USA, as I said before, is unexceptional in terms of numbers of attempts at suicide. Many other countries are far worse. However, 60% of all American suicides are by hand gun. That makes sense, since it is one of the only two methods with over 90% killing effect.
To FBM, who has questioned my facts on suicide, I hope you read the New England Journal of Medicine reference posted above.
As has been said before, if you are going to use that bogus argument, then you also have to advocate for the banning of the mechanisms of suicide in the other 40 percent of the cases. Obviously you don't give a damn about those people or removing those methods, because you're using this study to advance an argument not supported by the study itself.
If you are suicidal, or someone in your family is suicidal or even depressed, then the study is compelling evidence that THOSE PERSONS AND FAMILIES ought to take greater care to secure firearms in the home so that they cannot be used for suicide, but can be used for self defense, or any other lawful activity by non-suicidal persons.
In no way is the study an argument for banning the possession or public carrying of handguns on the part of sane, competent, non-suicidal individuals. That you make this connection repeatedly without once addressing the legitimate uses of handguns (which includes sport, hunting and self-defense), and while mendaciously ignoring the substantial evidence of the actual benefits in terms of lives saved, people not victimized, and reduced violent crime rates where concealed carry is lawful, shows just how intellectually bankrupt your argument is.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
I don't care if suicides die at a greater rate in the US because handguns are readily available. There are only a few thousand of them and there are 300 million of us who do not agree to having our gun rights infringed upon because a few mentally deranged people kill themselves.Blind groper wrote:FBM
I have never said that the USA had a higher than average suicide problem. What I have said is that 60% of its suicides are done with hand guns.
The thing that makes the USA unusual is the percentage of attempts that result is someone dying. That is due to the availability of hand guns. The thing is that a lot fewer people would die if those damn hand guns were not so readily available. How many people die elsewhere does not alter that basic point.
Your argument is just ideological bullshit of the highest order because you refuse to address or acknowledge the facts that have been presented to you that demonstrates that lawful concealed carry substantially reduces violent crimes everywhere it's been made lawful, which translates directly into lives SAVED and people freed from criminal victimization through the availability of handguns in our society. You narrow-mindedly focus on only one argument: suicides, as if eliminating handguns would make things all better. It wouldn't, it would make things much, much worse because no matter how many law-abiding citizens you disarm, you will NEVER disarm all of the criminals...or the suicides.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
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Gawdzilla Sama
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”
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Gawdzilla Sama
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
I bet they listen to their instructor next time...Gawdzilla Sama wrote:http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2 ... ety-class/
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
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