Guns used for lawful self defense
- laklak
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
As soon as there are no more guns in the hands of criminals, due to the assiduous efforts of the local constabulary, I'll gladly turn in my handguns. I'll know that happens after 20 or so years of no handgun related holdups, bank robberies, home invasions or gang killings.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Seth said something much like this once.laklak wrote:As soon as there are no more guns in the hands of criminals, due to the assiduous efforts of the local constabulary, I'll gladly turn in my handguns. I'll know that happens after 20 or so years of no handgun related holdups, bank robberies, home invasions or gang killings.
Gallstones says no, not even then, not even when criminals no longer have weapons.
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010
The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter
The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Which shows, Gallstones, that you are an addict.
That means you, of all people, need to get rid of them.
That means you, of all people, need to get rid of them.
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Blind groper wrote:Which shows, Gallstones, that you are an addict.
That means you, of all people, need to get rid of them.
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010
The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter
The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Blind groper wrote:To FBM
Certainly. But even a hunting pistol is not as good as a rifle for hunting. To give up the hunting pistol is no sacrifice.
Target shooting with hand guns? If you must, then an air pistol is quite up to the task. You do not need a tool designed for murder.
For those who want to suggest they use hand guns to fend off grizzlies, let me repeat my earlier researched fact that bear spray is safer and more effective.
Hand guns have no legitimate use. They are tools for murder.
Tang was designed for astronauts. There are lots of things designed for one purpose that turned out to great for other things.
I haven't been interested in slinging opinions on this topic back and forth for a long time. If you've got some scholarly research, please bring it or link to it. Did you link to the bear spray claim? (I'm on a mobile thingy, so searching the whole thread isn't practical at the moment.) Otherwise, you're making speculative moral and metaphysical assertions and asking that we accept them based on...what? If this were an a priori issue, we could have settled it long before now. But it's just one opinion vs another without real data of the sort that I've brought here. Much of that data suggests that some of the statements you've been making are fallacious. If you disagree, please bring something scholarly to support those claims. Empty rhetoric like "They are tools for murder" is worthless. Knives and swords are tools for murder.Sticks and stones are tools for murder. Hell, my body is a tool for murder. I trained it to be one. But have I murdered anyone? (That would be a no, at least as far as anyone alive knows.

"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
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"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
To FBM
My facts are generally pretty good. The bear spray thing I mentioned earlier with a reference. Here is another.
http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-re ... 963f4.html
Certainly the phrase "tools for murder" is rhetoric. Hell, just look at some of the things the gun enthusiasts say here. Rhetoric is the least of it. However, I think the "tools for murder" phrase has validity. Rifles are made as hunting weapons. Shotguns for hunting also. But hand guns are inferior for hunting. Their value over and above rifles is their portability and concealability. This makes them perfect murder weapons, since they can be smuggled undetected to the future murder scene. They were designed purely and simply to kill people. They might be applied to something else, like target shooting, but that is most definitely secondary to their main purpose - killing human beings. Their only real practical use is for shooting people.
Swords are also "tools for murder" for the same reason. Knives are not, since they have a myriad of other uses. Ditto sticks and stones. Your body is your own affair. I have no interest in what you can or cannot do with it.
My facts are generally pretty good. The bear spray thing I mentioned earlier with a reference. Here is another.
http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-re ... 963f4.html
Certainly the phrase "tools for murder" is rhetoric. Hell, just look at some of the things the gun enthusiasts say here. Rhetoric is the least of it. However, I think the "tools for murder" phrase has validity. Rifles are made as hunting weapons. Shotguns for hunting also. But hand guns are inferior for hunting. Their value over and above rifles is their portability and concealability. This makes them perfect murder weapons, since they can be smuggled undetected to the future murder scene. They were designed purely and simply to kill people. They might be applied to something else, like target shooting, but that is most definitely secondary to their main purpose - killing human beings. Their only real practical use is for shooting people.
Swords are also "tools for murder" for the same reason. Knives are not, since they have a myriad of other uses. Ditto sticks and stones. Your body is your own affair. I have no interest in what you can or cannot do with it.
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
OK, I'm fine with taking along a can of bear spray when I'm in bear country, but that's just a newspaper story, not research. Furthermore, it points out the flaws in the claim.
"The caveats: The firearms study was much more extensive, with 269 incidents involving 444 hunters. The spray study had 72 incidents with 175 people, and may have included a mix of less-dangerous encounters and full-on attacks. So the two studies aren’t directly linked.
Nevertheless, according to Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Region 4 bear manager Mike Madel, the results are pretty convincing."
In short, what he's saying is, 'OK, I know that study doesn't really support my conclusion, but I like my conclusion, so I'm going to pretend it does.' You can't do useful, accurate research with that sort of sloppy attitude.
But, like I said, I got nothing against carrying a can of bear spray around with me in bear country. Nor do I have anything against carrying either my .44 or .45 or a 12-ga shotgun or anything else that'll keep the bear off me.
"The caveats: The firearms study was much more extensive, with 269 incidents involving 444 hunters. The spray study had 72 incidents with 175 people, and may have included a mix of less-dangerous encounters and full-on attacks. So the two studies aren’t directly linked.
Nevertheless, according to Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Region 4 bear manager Mike Madel, the results are pretty convincing."
In short, what he's saying is, 'OK, I know that study doesn't really support my conclusion, but I like my conclusion, so I'm going to pretend it does.' You can't do useful, accurate research with that sort of sloppy attitude.
But, like I said, I got nothing against carrying a can of bear spray around with me in bear country. Nor do I have anything against carrying either my .44 or .45 or a 12-ga shotgun or anything else that'll keep the bear off me.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
FBM
My original reference for bear spray, which is now lost, was a recommendation from the US Wildlife Service. But the big point is that hand guns are not needed for defense against bears. They are not needed for hunting, since rifles are better. They are not needed for target shooting, since much less lethal air pistols are available. For defense in the home, they are not needed, for several reasons, but one good reason is that a rifle is better. The police need them, and I have no problem with the police having them. However, making them widely available to the public has meant 8,000 hand gun murders each year. A whole heap of people being killed for no good reason, and avoidably.
My original reference for bear spray, which is now lost, was a recommendation from the US Wildlife Service. But the big point is that hand guns are not needed for defense against bears. They are not needed for hunting, since rifles are better. They are not needed for target shooting, since much less lethal air pistols are available. For defense in the home, they are not needed, for several reasons, but one good reason is that a rifle is better. The police need them, and I have no problem with the police having them. However, making them widely available to the public has meant 8,000 hand gun murders each year. A whole heap of people being killed for no good reason, and avoidably.
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
And what evidence do you have to show that those murders wouldn't have taken place if handguns were unavailable?
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
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- Andrea Lavinthal, co-author of The Hookup Handbook: A Single Girl’s Guide to Living It Up

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- laklak
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Then you take them hunting. The deer urine gets 'em horny.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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- Blind groper
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Half of all murders and 60% of all suicides are with hand guns. The USA is the only western civilised nation with widespread hand gun ownership, and it has a massively greater murder rate than other western civilised nations. Those two facts are not unconnected.FBM wrote:And what evidence do you have to show that those murders wouldn't have taken place if handguns were unavailable?
Certainly some of those murders would have occurred without hand guns. However, the indications from what I said above are that the widespread availability of hand guns, combined with a sadly excessive gun culture, increases murder rates substantially. And then there are the studies showing that homes with hand guns have a 400% increase in spouse on spouse murders, compared to homes with no hand guns. Note that, outside the criminal killing criminal situation, spouse on spouse murders are probably the most common.
There is a similar increase in risk of a family member committing suicide if a hand gun is in the house. Most of the people on this forum with hand guns tell me it is for self defense. Yet murders of people at home by invading criminals is very, very uncommon. Spouse on spouse murders and family suicides are far more common. This tells me that, far from adding to safety, having a hand gun at home increases the risk of a family member dying.
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Guns are the great equalizer. Without them it would be back to the strong preying upon the weak 

A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Tyrannical.
That is bullshit and you know it. Apart from the USA, the free world does not permit hand guns in the ownership of civilians. And we are free.
That is bullshit and you know it. Apart from the USA, the free world does not permit hand guns in the ownership of civilians. And we are free.
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.
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