Guns used for lawful self defense

[Jason]

I have one response consisting of one word which will utterly rebut your argument MisterMack:

Derp!

[mistermack]

I have one response consisting of one word which will utterly rebut your argument MisterMack:
Derp!

Hmm, meaning don't even read properly, I presume.
or, do elephants rape penguins?

[Jason]

They might, given the opportunity. I've seen pics of them initiating rape with Volkswagens. They're a very rapey species.

[Wumbologist]

I have one response consisting of one word which will utterly rebut your argument MisterMack:

Derp!

There's no logical argument to be had with him. Pretty sure at several points I've been told by him that I'm a murderer in waiting simply because I own guns.

[mistermack]

I have one response consisting of one word which will utterly rebut your argument MisterMack:

Derp!

There's no logical argument to be had with him. Pretty sure at several points I've been told by him that I'm a murderer in waiting simply because I own guns.

I don't think I ever said that.
Might have said wanker, maybe. But only applied generally, to the gun loving fraternity.
I'm sure you're probably the one exception.

[laklak]

DC is totally different to Sarasota, so it's obviously going to have a different murder rate.

But Western Europe, Oz and New Zealand are just the same as the U.S. as a whole, right?

[MrJonno]

DC is totally different to Sarasota, so it's obviously going to have a different murder rate.

But Western Europe, Oz and New Zealand are just the same as the U.S. as a whole, right?

When it comes to guns you can divide the Western world into 3 groups

1) Europe bar Switzerland handguns highly restricted and if you possess one the police will arrest you or kill you

2) Switzerland handguns acceptable for sports only, even hint you want them for 'home defence' and the police will arrest/kill you

3) The US the difference between any American state when it comes to gun laws is minor compared to group 2 never mind group 1. The fact you have open state borders basically means any American can get hold of a gun legally or illegally with ease whether they live in Washington, New York or Texas.

[laklak]

Yeah, that's my point precisely. The U.S. is compared to Western Europe (and OZ and New Zealand) on a regular basis, and the difference in murder rates is supposedly explained by the availability of guns. Sarasota County and Washington, D.C. are both in the third category, and MM, Blind_Groper and you have argued that guns are a freely available in DC as they are in Sarasota. Fine, I'll accept that. So how do you explain the 5 times higher murder rate in DC?

I'm asking for a bit of consistency here. If you're going to claim the differences in DC and Sarasota are ONLY cultural, then why are the differences in Western Europe and the U.S. not similarly cultural? Where does availability of guns fit into the equation?

[mistermack]

Yeah, that's my point precisely. The U.S. is compared to Western Europe (and OZ and New Zealand) on a regular basis, and the difference in murder rates is supposedly explained by the availability of guns. Sarasota County and Washington, D.C. are both in the third category, and MM, Blind_Groper and you have argued that guns are a freely available in DC as they are in Sarasota. Fine, I'll accept that. So how do you explain the 5 times higher murder rate in DC?

I'm asking for a bit of consistency here. If you're going to claim the differences in DC and Sarasota are ONLY cultural, then why are the differences in Western Europe and the U.S. not similarly cultural? Where does availability of guns fit into the equation?

Why go to continental scales? There are always differences you can point to.

Boil it down to one man, and you can't have any differences of culture.

If someone is shagging your wife, are you more likely to kill him, if you have a gun at home, or not?

[Blind groper]

Thank you mistermack.
Unlike Pord and others, you re-stated my view accurately.

Let me make it clear. The statistics show :
1. The USA has a homicide rate that is 400% or more greater than other western civilised nations, except Finland, where it is only twice as great.
2. Half of all those murders in American are done with hand guns.
3. In the USA, 60% of all suicides are committed with hand guns also.

It does not take a genius to realise that something is wrong, and that hand guns are a very big part of what is wrong. Hand guns are readily available in the USA, even if you have to cross a state line to get one. In no other western civilised nation are hand guns that available. In addition, the USA has a tradition of glorifying the gun man. This is American gun culture, which was beautifully lampooned by Michael Moore in the film "Bowling for Columbine".

So my view is that America has two big gun problems.
1. Ready availability of hand guns.
2. A very harmful gun culture.

There is no easy answer, of course, and any solution would take decades to fully implement. However, that is not an excuse to fail to act. The need is for a federal law - not local or state - to restrict hand guns to police and military. Obviously, that will not stop those murders and suicides overnight. But if you can, in the short term, drop hand gun murders from 8,000 per year to (say) 4,000, and drop hand gun suicides from 12,000 per year to (say) 6,000, then you are saving 10,000 human lives each year. That is well worth doing.

This does not prevent people from having a defense for their homes, since such a law is limited to hand guns - not to the much more effective sporting rifles.

Slowly, over years or decades, with no hand guns for sale in gun shops, the supply will dry up, and the guns will become much more expensive. This will cut the numbers in the hands of even criminals. Not to mention the actions of police to remove hand guns from criminals. Over time, hand gun murders and suicides will drop to something close to zero, which has already happened in every other western civilised nation.

[Wumbologist]

Thank you mistermack.
Unlike Pord and others, you re-stated my view accurately.

Let me make it clear. The statistics show :
1. The USA has a homicide rate that is 400% or more greater than other western civilised nations, except Finland, where it is only twice as great.
2. Half of all those murders in American are done with hand guns.
3. In the USA, 60% of all suicides are committed with hand guns also.

It does not take a genius to realise that something is wrong, and that hand guns are a very big part of what is wrong. Hand guns are readily available in the USA, even if you have to cross a state line to get one. In no other western civilised nation are hand guns that available. In addition, the USA has a tradition of glorifying the gun man. This is American gun culture, which was beautifully lampooned by Michael Moore in the film "Bowling for Columbine".

So my view is that America has two big gun problems.
1. Ready availability of hand guns.
2. A very harmful gun culture.

There is no easy answer, of course, and any solution would take decades to fully implement. However, that is not an excuse to fail to act. The need is for a federal law - not local or state - to restrict hand guns to police and military. Obviously, that will not stop those murders and suicides overnight. But if you can, in the short term, drop hand gun murders from 8,000 per year to (say) 4,000, and drop hand gun suicides from 12,000 per year to (say) 6,000, then you are saving 10,000 human lives each year. That is well worth doing.

This does not prevent people from having a defense for their homes, since such a law is limited to hand guns - not to the much more effective sporting rifles.

Slowly, over years or decades, with no hand guns for sale in gun shops, the supply will dry up, and the guns will become much more expensive. This will cut the numbers in the hands of even criminals. Not to mention the actions of police to remove hand guns from criminals. Over time, hand gun murders and suicides will drop to something close to zero, which has already happened in every other western civilised nation.

You have a very vivid imagination.

[Blind groper]

You have a very vivid imagination.

Nope.

Just simple arithmetic. If you respect the basic facts, and apply very simple and accurate logic, the conclusions are clear cut.

[Wumbologist]

You have a very vivid imagination.

Nope.

Just simple arithmetic. If you respect the basic facts, and apply very simple and accurate logic, the conclusions are clear cut.

And a wonderful sense of humor, to boot.

[Wumbologist]

Expedient Homemade Firearms, Volume II:

http://thehomegunsmith.com/pdf/Expedien ... A-Luty.pdf

Instructions for creating a .32 .380, or 9mm machine pistol using commonly available materials and tools. But please, tell me again about how all we have to do is make a law that says "No more guns, guys!" and the bad guys magically won't be able to get them anymore.

[Wumbologist]

Actually, come to think of it, homemade firearms could make things even more dangerous. If one is making their own firearm, it's actually easier to make it fully automatic than semi-auto. Currently, the vast majority of firearms used in crime are semi-automatic, because that is what is most available. Assuming those start to dry up, the demand for firearms still exists, and when people start manufacturing illegal firearms, they're virtually guaranteed to be full-auto.