Guns used for lawful self defense

[Blind groper]

Just to highlight what Lak already wrote, you're not addressing the issue (as usual). If guns are equally available in Sarasota as they are in D.C. why are the homicide rates so disparate? Clearly it points to something other than the availability of guns and you don't wish to address it.

This is a straw man argument, since I have never said that gun availability is the only factor determining murder rates. It is, however, a very important and powerful factor.

[laklak]

No, it's been your point all along. Suicide, murder, accidental shootings, kids with guns, you've hammered on all of those, claiming that the overriding factor is the availability of handguns. But it doesn't hold water - if it did you would expect the statistics to be completely reversed. Sarasota's relatively high percentages of concealed carry permit holders and the great number of handguns floating around Florida should lead, by your logic, to a far higher murder rate. In fact the reverse is true. One could be forgiven for drawing the exact opposite conclusion - the easier it is to own and carry weapons and the more legal weapons in circulation the lower the murder rate.

[Jason]

No, you were and still are side stepping the issue while making specious assertions such as 'gun availability is a very important and powerful factor' and dismissing the other complicating factors which are apparently quite important and powerful so you may focus on your pet boogeyman: Handguns.

I find your style of argumentation disingenuous and tedious at best.

[Jason]

No, it's been your point all along. Suicide, murder, accidental shootings, kids with guns, you've hammered on all of those, claiming that the overriding factor is the availability of handguns. But it doesn't hold water - if it did you would expect the statistics to be completely reversed. Sarasota's relatively high percentages of concealed carry permit holders and the great number of handguns floating around Florida should lead, by your logic, to a far higher murder rate. In fact the reverse is true. One could be forgiven for drawing the exact opposite conclusion - the easier it is to own and carry weapons and the more legal weapons in circulation the lower the murder rate.

Even granting groper's contention that handguns are equally available in both places, the fact that D.C. has a much higher murder rate than Sarasota disproves his pet theory. Or it should for any rational minded person.

[Blind groper]

Straw man again.

What I have said all along is that the over-riding factor that makes the USA murder rate so high, compared to other western civilised nations, is hand guns. That is clearly shown by the fact that hand guns kill half of all people killed in murder.

I have not addressed the variation that happens from one part of the USA to another. Any suggestion that I have said that variation is due to hand gun variation is pure bullshit, because I have never said that.

Please keep your arguments real. Inventing false claims about what I said is not the way to win respect.

[Wumbologist]

Straw man again.

What I have said all along is that the over-riding factor that makes the USA murder rate so high, compared to other western civilised nations, is hand guns. That is clearly shown by the fact that hand guns kill half of all people killed in murder.

I have not addressed the variation that happens from one part of the USA to another. Any suggestion that I have said that variation is due to hand gun variation is pure bullshit, because I have never said that.

Please keep your arguments real. Inventing false claims about what I said is not the way to win respect.

And I'll bring up the point that I've made a million times in these threads:

They have handguns in Switzerland. If the over-riding factor is handguns, why is Switzerland's homicide rate as low as it is?

[Blind groper]

There are two important differences between Switzerland and the USA regarding firearms.

1. Relatively few hand guns compared to the USA. And yes, those few are strongly represented in crime for their number.
2. A very different gun culture. Where the Americans glorify the amateur gun slinger who blows away the bad guys, the Swiss relate firearms to defense of the country. The glorification of guns outside the military is at a tiny level compared to the USA.

I have also said this before, but apparently without Wumbo or anyone else taking any notice.

[JimC]

No, it's been your point all along. Suicide, murder, accidental shootings, kids with guns, you've hammered on all of those, claiming that the overriding factor is the availability of handguns. But it doesn't hold water - if it did you would expect the statistics to be completely reversed. Sarasota's relatively high percentages of concealed carry permit holders and the great number of handguns floating around Florida should lead, by your logic, to a far higher murder rate. In fact the reverse is true. One could be forgiven for drawing the exact opposite conclusion - the easier it is to own and carry weapons and the more legal weapons in circulation the lower the murder rate.

However, rather than just one comparison (Florida vs NY), you would need to get data from all the various jurisdictions in America for gun ownership levels, laws about carrying and homicide rates, and do a serious statistical analysis.

[MrJonno]

There are two important differences between Switzerland and the USA regarding firearms.

1. Relatively few hand guns compared to the USA. And yes, those few are strongly represented in crime for their number.
2. A very different gun culture. Where the Americans glorify the amateur gun slinger who blows away the bad guys, the Swiss relate firearms to defense of the country. The glorification of guns outside the military is at a tiny level compared to the USA.

I have also said this before, but apparently without Wumbo or anyone else taking any notice.

Having worked for a bit in Switzerland I can make a few comments,

While Swiss gun laws are liberal compared to the rest of Europe they are tight compared to the US.

Carrying a loaded weapon outside a gun range or hunting is a serious crime, having a loaded handgun in the house is a crime. Basically having a gun where its easily avaliable to shoot another human being (ie a burgular) is a crime. To carry a weapon outside hunting/rural sports you basically need a license which is given to security personel the same as it is anywhere else in the world bar the US

The Swiss no longer allow ammunition to be kept for military weapons at home except for speciai forces

When I worked in Geneva the only place I ever saw a firearm was on the police which is still a little unsettling if you aren't used to an armed police

[laklak]

However, rather than just one comparison (Florida vs NY), you would need to get data from all the various jurisdictions in America for gun ownership levels, laws about carrying and homicide rates, and do a serious statistical analysis.

Why? The comparisons with Western Europe that are used all the time in these threads don't do that. They look at two figures - gun ownership and homicide rate. The contention is that higher gun rates lead to higher homicide and suicide rates. However, I've a little time on my hands in the next couple of days, I'll see what I can come up with. The data isn't easy to find, actually, it's spread all over the web and a meta analylsis of all the various studies is something I'd need a government grant to manage.

[Wumbologist]

Having worked for a bit in Switzerland I can make a few comments,

While Swiss gun laws are liberal compared to the rest of Europe they are tight compared to the US.

Guns are still available. If someone is planning on killing, they're not going to worry about breaking a few other laws in the process.

Carrying a loaded weapon outside a gun range or hunting is a serious crime, having a loaded handgun in the house is a crime. Basically having a gun where its easily avaliable to shoot another human being (ie a burgular) is a crime. To carry a weapon outside hunting/rural sports you basically need a license which is given to security personel the same as it is anywhere else in the world bar the US

Right, again, someone intent on killing isn't going to go "Oh, well it's illegal for me to carry this gun on my way to the murder, so I guess that's the end of that".

The Swiss no longer allow ammunition to be kept for military weapons at home except for speciai forces

5.56/.223 is a very common round. It's not like the military is the only place one could acquire ammunition that would fit into a military weapon. The bottom line is that guns are available, and anyone who had an interest in using them to do harm would not be stopped by the restrictions in place. Nor would anyone in the US be stopped if we were to put in place the same restrictions.

[Wumbologist]

1. Relatively few hand guns compared to the USA. And yes, those few are strongly represented in crime for their number.

Which only proves that when they are available they are a preferable tool to those who would be committing murder either way. It doesn't prove that they actually increase the number of homicides, and there is no way to show that without handguns, the murder weapon would not be substituted for whatever else is available. Swiss homicide rates are on par with the rest of Western Europe. Deal with it.

2. A very different gun culture. Where the Americans glorify the amateur gun slinger who blows away the bad guys, the Swiss relate firearms to defense of the country. The glorification of guns outside the military is at a tiny level compared to the USA.

I'm all for a greater culture of responsibility among US gun owners. That's an entirely different stance from the one you've been advocating though. If your case is simply "US gun owners should be more responsible with their guns", I wouldn't disagree, but so far as I can see your case here is "US gun owners could be more responsible with their guns, therefore ban 'em".

[Animavore]

I think we should let all those who are pro-gun and all those who are anti-gun fight it out.

[Jason]

Straw man again.

What I have said all along is that the over-riding factor that makes the USA murder rate so high, compared to other western civilised nations, is hand guns. That is clearly shown by the fact that hand guns kill half of all people killed in murder.

I have not addressed the variation that happens from one part of the USA to another. Any suggestion that I have said that variation is due to hand gun variation is pure bullshit, because I have never said that.

Please keep your arguments real. Inventing false claims about what I said is not the way to win respect.

That's twice you've accused me of creating a strawman by stramanning my arguments. It is getting tiresome. Either address the issue that there are other factors, which are equally or more important, than the availability of handguns affecting the homicide rate of a particular area, no matter the size, or continue to avoid it and further discredit your side of the debate.

[mistermack]

Even granting groper's contention that handguns are equally available in both places, the fact that D.C. has a much higher murder rate than Sarasota disproves his pet theory. Or it should for any rational simple minded person.

I don't think Groper's theory is that everywhere should have the same murder rate. I haven't seen him claim that.
DC is totally different to Sarasota, so it's obviously going to have a different murder rate.
How can that disprove the claim that easy access to guns increases the murder rate?

Access to guns for criminals is much easier in a place like DC, where there is much more poverty, more gang and crime culture etc. It might be easier to get a legal gun in Sarasota, but it's going to be easier and cheaper to get an illegal one in DC.