Guns used for lawful self defense

[JimC]

s the official statisticians point out, more than two-thirds of murders involve a partner or an ex-partner, or stem from some other kind of family-related violence

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/1 ... c-violence

Fuck, I knew I'd been behind on the news, but I'd think something like England and Wales becoming the 51st and 52nd states of the Union would be hard to miss.

Just furthering my encompassing point that homicide in the US is an inherently different beast than it is elsewhere. We're likely about on par as far as per capita domestic homicides, it's drug and gang related violence that drives the US rate to what it is.

And has been said many times before, there are also many gangs and lots of drugs in Oz, NZ, etc...

Difference is, very few hand-guns or military-style assault rifles in circulation...

Hence, less mayhem from those sources as well...

[Blind groper]

I have no doubt, Wumbo, that drug and gang violence is a small part of it. What you fail to take into account, though, is that drug and gang violence is also a major part of crime in other western civilised nations, which have murder rates a quarter or less than the USA.

Here in NZ, we have a sadly large gang scene, with those gangs being main importers, manufacturers, and sellers of illegal drugs. There is a lot of violence within and between gangs. However, they do not murder anywhere near as many people as in the USA, for the simple reason that they do not have the guns to do so. Shotguns and rifles, yes. But not hand guns. And to carry out lots of murders, the gangs need guns that can be concealed and are easily portable. They do not have them, and our murders are less than a quarter per capita compared to the USA.

[Seth]

Well tell the truth I have grandkids who stop over at the week ends and if that at happened to me and I lived in America where weapons are freely available I would have blown his brains out.

And in Colorado, under our Castle Doctrine law, you would have been absolutely legally justified in doing so and would be immune from either civil or criminal charges.

This hairy dick should thank whatever gods he believes in that he's still alive.

Now in the UK, not only was he free to walk in naked and unannounced, but if the homeowner had the temerity to bust both his kneecaps with a cricket bat, much less beat him to death, the homeowner would land in jail and be successfully sued by the intruder for daring to injure him.

Dumb motherfuckers.

[Seth]

Fuck 'em.

Seth,

With your total lack of empathy and complete callousness towards those less fortunate than yourself, it explains a lot.

Oh, I don't know about that. I'm all for getting potential suicides mental health assistance and have put several on 72 hour mental holds in my years as a cop. But when it comes to my RKBA, the lame excuse you present as justification for taking away my handguns pisses me off and I'd much prefer that whomever wishes to kill him or herself just get on with it, as opposed to buying in to your asinine argument. My rights are not subject to the whims and caprices of legally insane potential suicides, sorry. Given a choice between my rights and their lives, my rights prevail because my ownership of firearms has absolutely no causal relationship with their desire, ability or convenience in offing themselves.

Add in your love of guns and fantasizing about killing people legally, and I hereby pronounce you psychopath.

And yet in my quarter century or more of carrying a concealed handgun literally every single day (that's more than 9000 times), I've not yet shot anyone at all in my supposed "psychopathic" derangement. Which makes your analysis nothing more than a bad case of craino-rectal inversion on your part.

However, since you deem me a grave danger to yourself, you should immediately fuck off and keep out of the United States, and be sure to look over your shoulder every three seconds while pissing yourself in fear that I, or someone like me, is coming up behind you to give you a hot lead injection. Sleep well.

[Seth]

I do love Seth mystical species the 'law abiding citizen' and the the other species 'evil criminal' , life is just so simple in Seth world

Yup, remarkably simple. Mind your business and stay out of mine and don't present me with a potentially lethal threat to my or anyone else's life or health and we'll get along fine.

Fuck with me by threatening me to the extent that I form a reasonable belief that I, or another person, is in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm and I reasonably believe that a lesser degree of physical force would be inadequate to stop the threat and I'll put two in your chest and one in your head in <0.80 seconds without a second thought and I'll sleep just fine at night after doing so.

So, you've had your warning, and it's quite simple to get along with me, as you can see. Just don't cross the line.

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

Well tell the truth I have grandkids who stop over at the week ends and if that at happened to me and I lived in America where weapons are freely available I would have blown his brains out.

And in Colorado, under our Castle Doctrine law, you would have been absolutely legally justified in doing so and would be immune from either civil or criminal charges.

This hairy dick should thank whatever gods he believes in that he's still alive.

Now in the UK, not only was he free to walk in naked and unannounced, but if the homeowner had the temerity to bust both his kneecaps with a cricket bat, much less beat him to death, the homeowner would land in jail and be successfully sued by the intruder for daring to injure him.

Dumb motherfuckers.

I must say I resent being included in such a broad generalisation.
Personally, I wouldn't hestiate to use necessary force (up to, and including lethal force, if needed) to protect myself, family or property.
We have the right to defend our property, etc. with reasonable force (reasonable being the amount needed to subdue an attacker - any violence used after they have been subdued would be illegal).
The laws are there - the problem is getting the UK pigs to fucking uphold them and respect the general public's rights.

[Seth]

I do love Seth mystical species the 'law abiding citizen'

I must be a fuckin' unicorn then, because there's not so much as a misdemeanor crime on my record.

So never broke any law or believe that you might in the future, generally most murders arent murders (or even have serious criminal records) until they actually kill someone, ie its a domestic

See, Wumbo, that's jonno's demented, paranoid and pathological view of everyone else on the planet. Pretty sad really. Probably ought to be put away in a padded room somewhere so he won't get hurt.

[FBM]

Denver Post, Tuesday October 30, 2012, page 4A:
By Tom McGhee

Naked man invades Denver apartment, gets shot

Lester Miller may be a suspected burglar, but no one would call him a clothes horse.

Denver police say that Miller, 55, entered an East Colfax Avenue apartment "completely nude," and when one of the occupants ordered him to leave, refused, according to a police report.

When he came toward the armed occupant, he got a bullet in the leg.

This is what police say happened: The couple, who live with their two children in the 7100 block of East Colfax Avenue, returned home from shopping at about 2 p.m. on Oct. 13.

Miller entered through the unlocked front door.

As the couple was putting away groceries they heard a door shut. The husband told his wife to call 911, got his gun and went to investigate.

"The female occupant took the children and hid in a bedroom while the victim challenged the defendant," according to the report.

Miller was in the children's bedroom, and when the husband ordered him to leave, flopped down on one of the beds. The husband told him to get out of the apartment or he would shoot him.

Miller allegedly got out of the bed and began advancing on the husband, who continued to "order the defendant out of his home."

When Miller kept coming, the husband fired once, hitting him in the leg.

"After being shot, the defendant continued to refuse to leave and went inside the bathroom to hide."

Police arrived and arrested Miller.

Miller, who is scheduled for a court hearing on Nov. 5, is facing charges for second degree burglary and indecent exposure.

He is being held the Denver County jail.

The occupants of the apartment couldn't be reached for comment.

Well tell the truth I have grandkids who stop over at the week ends and if that at happened to me and I lived in America where weapons are freely available I would have blown his brains out.

[Blind groper]

And yet in my quarter century or more of carrying a concealed handgun literally every single day (that's more than 9000 times), I've not yet shot anyone at all in my supposed "psychopathic" derangement. Which makes your analysis nothing more than a bad case of craino-rectal inversion on your part.

No. It just means you have not learned what a psychopath is.
While some psychopaths will do something stupid like illegally shoot an innocent person, any of that ilk with a few brains will make damn sure he does nothing to end up afoul of the police. Lots of psychopaths end up as business leaders or politicians. Look at Enron. For that matter, look at George W. Bush.

Seth, from my view point, and bearing in mind your often voiced callousness, and your often voiced apparent desire to kill someone legally, I do think you are likely to be a psychopath. You probably have enough brains to avoid breaking the law and ending up in prison, but that does not mean you are not one.

To be fair, I am not a psychiatrist, and I have not met you in person, or had the time to get to know you properly, so I could well be wrong. Let me just say that the superficial indicators are of psychopathy.

[Seth]

Well tell the truth I have grandkids who stop over at the week ends and if that at happened to me and I lived in America where weapons are freely available I would have blown his brains out.

And in Colorado, under our Castle Doctrine law, you would have been absolutely legally justified in doing so and would be immune from either civil or criminal charges.

This hairy dick should thank whatever gods he believes in that he's still alive.

Now in the UK, not only was he free to walk in naked and unannounced, but if the homeowner had the temerity to bust both his kneecaps with a cricket bat, much less beat him to death, the homeowner would land in jail and be successfully sued by the intruder for daring to injure him.

Dumb motherfuckers.

I must say I resent being included in such a broad generalisation.

You allowed your government to bend you over and fuck you in the ass regarding your RKBA, in spite of the guarantees of the Rights of Englishmen in the Magna Carta, and you've done nothing to stop your masters from bending you over again and again, so resent away, machts nichts to me.

Personally, I wouldn't hestiate to use necessary force (up to, and including lethal force, if needed) to protect myself, family or property.
We have the right to defend our property, etc. with reasonable force (reasonable being the amount needed to subdue an attacker - any violence used after they have been subdued would be illegal).

No you don't, you just think you do. What's "reasonable" to you, while under attack, is going to be dissected in detail in a fury of Monday morning quarterbacking by prosecutors, judges and juries who have been propagandized and indoctrinated into the government's policy decision that surrender, capitulation and no resistance is better for the public and therefore you need to be shown up as an example of what not to do to scare the proletarian dependent class and they will fuck you up the ass with the words you have just written here.

The real problem is that you've been so thoroughly indoctrinated into the criminal-coddling surrender mentality that even if you are fully justified in using immediate lethal force under English law, you will inevitably hesitate and dither about and it will be too late and you, or your wife and daughter will end up raped and murdered in front of your eyes as you sit helplessly duct-taped to a chair.

No such hesitation for me. I've trained assiduously for years to prepare for a host of tactical scenarios and once the threat level rises to the legal minimum authorizing the deployment of deadly physical force, I deploy deadly physical force, without further thought or hesitation. I don't dither and fumble about, I don't worry about the legal consequences or the "rights" of violent criminals, I assess the threat, assess the tactical situation, and apply the necessary force immediately and worry about being Monday-morning quarterbacked later. Better tried by twelve than carried by six here in the good old US of A, where juries are generally sympathetic to upstanding law abiding citizens defending themselves against violent criminal predators.

The laws are there - the problem is getting the UK pigs to fucking uphold them and respect the general public's rights.[/quote]

[Seth]

And yet in my quarter century or more of carrying a concealed handgun literally every single day (that's more than 9000 times), I've not yet shot anyone at all in my supposed "psychopathic" derangement. Which makes your analysis nothing more than a bad case of craino-rectal inversion on your part.

No. It just means you have not learned what a psychopath is.
While some psychopaths will do something stupid like illegally shoot an innocent person, any of that ilk with a few brains will make damn sure he does nothing to end up afoul of the police. Lots of psychopaths end up as business leaders or politicians. Look at Enron. For that matter, look at George W. Bush.

Seth, from my view point, and bearing in mind your often voiced callousness, and your often voiced apparent desire to kill someone legally, I do think you are likely to be a psychopath. You probably have enough brains to avoid breaking the law and ending up in prison, but that does not mean you are not one.

Pot, kettle, black, liar. I've never once even intimated that I "desire to kill someone." I've been exceedingly careful to point out that before I'm authorized to use deadly force, a particular and specific threat level must present. You're just in a tizzy because I openly state that when presented with such a tactical situation I will not hesitate to use deadly force. Only an idiot would hesitate to defend himself when the requisite legally mandated threat has presented itself. I guess that means you. I'd hate to be your wife or kids because you'll do nothing to protect them because you don't know how and you have far too much empathy for violent criminals and not enough for their victims. Here's hoping that some thug victimizes you soon, so you can get a taste of what your policy objectives actually achieve. If you're lucky, you might live through it. I expect your policies will change pretty quickly thereafter.

To be fair, I am not a psychiatrist,

You're not even much of a thinker.

and I have not met you in person,

Probably a good thing because I can be quite intolerant and rude to microcephalic morons who haven't a fucking clue what they are talking about.

or had the time to get to know you properly, so I could well be wrong.

Oh, you are wrong. You're safer around me than you are around anyone except perhaps the President or some dignitary protected by the Secret Service because I don't discriminate based on mental capacity or political insanity when defending an innocent person against a violent criminal attack. I'll put my life at risk to save you or your family even knowing what an idiot you are about self defense.

Let me just say that the superficial indicators are of psychopathy.

Only to a pinhead with an IQ in the single digits such as you.

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

Lol.
Some pretty bold and unfounded assumtions being made about me there.

[Wumbologist]

On being killed by someone you know.
My earlier comment was : "Certainly criminals kill more people than law abiding citizens do. However, the people they kill are mostly other criminals. When a law abiding citizen is murdered, though, (which is mostly with a firearm in the US, and two thirds of all such murders are with hand guns) the killer is usually someone they know."

Since so much of this discussion was about home invasions and the like, and the "need" to defend from those villains, I wanted to point out that law abiding citizens are rarely murdered by such extreme events. The most frequent murderers of women, for example, is their husbands. And most of those murders in the USA is by hand guns. Having a hand gun at home increases the likelihood of a wife being murdered substantially.

Having a hand gun at home also increases the likelihood of one of your kids committing suicide by a very substantial margin (from memory, I think it was 400%). Since suicides by hand gun in the US outnumber murders by home invaders by a factor of more than ten, this means that any meagre value in terms of self defense from having a hand gun at home is overwhelmed by the increased risk to your family of death by suicide.

In the last decade, firearm homicides of intimate partners have come down quite a lot in the US, to be about on par with non-firearm homicides. At any rate, I've yet to see any data to suggest that the women killed by gun-wielding intimate partners would be any more likely to be alive today, had their husbands not had a firearm. Generally, if a guy wants to kill his wife he'll do it with whatever he's got within reach. As you can see from the chart here, the categories where firearms are actually most likely to be used are "friends/acquaintences" and strangers, conveniently the categories that drug and gang related violence are most likely to fall into. The homicide rate in the US is more closely correlated to the war on drugs and inner city gang prevalence than anything else, and as such those are the factors that need to be worked on to see a serious change in the homicide rate in the US.

[Blind groper]

Wumbo

If that is the case, then why has NZ less than a quarter of the homicides of the USA? Because I can guarantee you that we have as much or more gang problems, and drug problems. For example, almost 25% of the population is known to regularly smoke cannabis, and all cannabis is illegal and mainly available from gang drug pushers.

[Jason]

Yo Groper!

The other day I made a 2 1/2" group at 200 yards with my .308. I was so happy I jacked off over my rifle.

Just though you'd like to know.

PS. It was a 10 shot group with no rest used.