An independent Scotland?

[ronmcd]

Why would we NOT be able to make things better? People will be able to elect the government they want, on radical or timid manifestos.

Yeh, that's right.
A bit like Ireland and Iceland. And the SNP were hard-selling that comparison only a few short years ago.
Your above comment is ludicrously naiive.

What a marvellous job self determination does. How well the local government runs the economy.
Look how "in touch" they are with local needs.
Till they disastrously fuck it up.

But wait, it turns out, they were fucking it up the whole time.
It just took a while to show.

You mean like the English were? and the Yanks?

I like the Icelandic approach to the crisis - telling the rest of the world to f#ck off by refusing to write 50 years of IOU's simply to ensure that greedy halfwits didn't lose money. Plus sticking a few folks from the Govt on trial was a nice touch! (strange that the UK has had Public enquiries for pretty much everything - apart from into how, why and by whom the Country was bankrupted). What the Icelanders did was take the long term view (for Anglo Saxons amongst us - that is the stuff that happens after next quarter) and decide to act in the interests of it's own people. Radical huh!

And a written Icelandic constitution, by the people. As I read someone calling it, a crowd-sourced constitution!

[mistermack]

I don't know how to get it into your rather muddled heads.
But I'll try.

"The People" haven't got a fucking clue how to run a country.
They know how to cut hair, or deliver milk, or progamme computers. That's what they're good at.
Give them the choice on important matters, and they vote for lots of sweets and jelly. And fuck tomorrow.

That's what just happened in the birthplace of democracy.

Countries and economies need expert handling. Not referenda.
Ireland is currently having a referendum on childrens' rights. WTF ?

Local politics has ALWAYS been bollocks. The more local, the more shite.
Seems like China's doing ok, with a big central government, that makes the UK look totally devolved in comparison. With all the disadvantages of socialism thrown in.

[Red Celt]

If your ideal government is in China, why complain about the movement of a system you don't like from Westminster to Holyrood? Same system. Your argument is a non-argument... which is what you've been using throughout this thread, so I guess that you're at least consistent.

And ronmcd, why are you even trying to convince mistermack of, well, anything. Don't you recognise a lost cause?

[mistermack]

If your ideal government is in China, why complain about the movement of a system you don't like from Westminster to Holyrood? Same system. Your argument is a non-argument... which is what you've been using throughout this thread, so I guess that you're at least consistent.

I'll compare my arguments to yours any day.
Because yours seem to consist of "you would say that, because you're a cunt".

I do try to aim a little higher.

[Red Celt]

If your ideal government is in China, why complain about the movement of a system you don't like from Westminster to Holyrood? Same system. Your argument is a non-argument... which is what you've been using throughout this thread, so I guess that you're at least consistent.

I'll compare my arguments to yours any day.
Because yours seem to consist of "you would say that, because you're a cunt".

I do try to aim a little higher.

But mistermack, you manage to be wrong about just about everything; including your assessment of my style of argumentation. So, honestly, what is the point? (and that was a rhetorical question, because expecting you to provide an answer to any question... well... I'm not that optimistic)

[mistermack]

And ronmcd, why are you even trying to convince mistermack of, well, anything. Don't you recognise a lost cause?

He likes replying, because it gives him an excuse to post acres more of SNP material.

That doesn't bother me. I actually don't much care what happens in Scotland. It's an academic argument for me, about devolution, which I've always thought was a big mistake.

Even before they started on a Scottish Parliament, I knew it would be a gigantic waste, and probably be a drag on everybody. And it has.
I posted years ago that if I was in power, I would abolish the lot, and use those white elephants for concert venues. I've always been consistent on it.

From a practical point of view, if Salmond wins the vote, it just means that the Tories get an inbuilt majority, which I don't like.
But that might actually be a good thing. It would force labour to move.
They would have to kill off the link to the Unions and fight as a more centerist party.
Which might restore the balance and kill off the Liberals.
So I honestly don't see too much havoc here.

Scotland will get a neighbour down south which no longer has it's interest at heart.
One that is either permanently Tory, or run by a Labour party a lot to the right of the present one.
Which it might find uncomfortable.

[Santa_Claus]

I don't know how to get it into your rather muddled heads.
But I'll try.

"The People" haven't got a fucking clue how to run a country.

That might be a hard sell for the "No" campaign (leaving aside that you do have a point - but Democracy is what we have to work with).

[ronmcd]

And ronmcd, why are you even trying to convince mistermack of, well, anything. Don't you recognise a lost cause?

He likes replying, because it gives him an excuse to post acres more of SNP material.

And what SNP material have I posted? Hmm? I think you view the ongoing discussion in Scotland now through the prism of the Daily Mail "subsidised Scots" clichés: that EVERYONE accepts that Scotland is a basket case that would flounder on it's own, except the lying separatists of the SNP.

Confirmation, once again, you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

That doesn't bother me. I actually don't much care what happens in Scotland. It's an academic argument for me, about devolution, which I've always thought was a big mistake.

Even before they started on a Scottish Parliament, I knew it would be a gigantic waste, and probably be a drag on everybody. And it has.

No, it hasn't actually, but carry on ...

From a practical point of view, if Salmond wins the vote, it just means that the Tories get an inbuilt majority, which I don't like.

Wrong. How many times does this have to be repeated, before the facts sink in? Scotland only has a small number of MP's. The reason Labour won in 1997 and repeatedly after that was because ENGLAND voted for Labour. There have only been a couple of instances in recent decades where Scottish MP's made any difference to the outcome. England votes, and England gets the government it wanted, almost every time.

But that might actually be a good thing. It would force labour to move.
They would have to kill off the link to the Unions and fight as a more centerist party.

How much more centrist can New Labour get? Theres virtually no difference between them, they are both shades of conservative now.

Scotland will get a neighbour down south which no longer has it's interest at heart.
One that is either permanently Tory, or run by a Labour party a lot to the right of the present one.
Which it might find uncomfortable.

A good argument for independence is just that - Westminister no matter if Labour or Tory are not representative of what people in Scotland want. We want and have free education (like labour used to want), we want and have an unprivatised NHS (like labour used to want), we want rid of nukes (like labour used to). How do we protect even the policies people here like, the ones that devolution have given us or enhanced? Let Westminister decide, when it cares only about the South East?

Don't be bitter. We will be good neighbours, as I'm sure England will. Even if you won't.

[Red Celt]

Don't be bitter. We will be good neighbours, as I'm sure England will. Even if you won't.

I think that a lot of the antagonism (not in this thread, but more widespread) is due to the idea that some people see this as an anti-English thing, when it's no such thing. We're neighbours. We have a lot of common ground (and history). It's just about self-control and nothing else.

And (for those who doubt it) you don't have to be an SNP supporter to be pro-independence. Attacking Salmond as if you're attacking the Yes campaign is simply farcical. It's the SNP who have brought the issue to the foreground, but they aren't the only ones looking for independence and (if/when it happens) post-independence Scotland won't be the sole domain of the SNP.

[Pappa]

I think that a lot of the antagonism (not in this thread, but more widespread) is due to the idea that some people see this as an anti-English thing, when it's no such thing.

I don't know. I'm sure there are lots of Scots that would vote yes for anti-English reasons alone. It's be the same in Northern Ireland and here in Wales too.

[mistermack]

You separatists keep on with the "we" and "you". It's mindless bollocks.

Pathetic stone-age crap, worshipping a line drawn years ago by the the most powerful bandits of the day.

I'm trying to get you to actually think, but it seems to be a non-starter.
You do realise that there are no Scots or English or Welsh? It's all in your sleepy heads.

Very like a fundie christian. Us and them all over again.

[Red Celt]

I think that a lot of the antagonism (not in this thread, but more widespread) is due to the idea that some people see this as an anti-English thing, when it's no such thing.

I don't know. I'm sure there are lots of Scots that would vote yes for anti-English reasons alone. It's be the same in Northern Ireland and here in Wales too.

Oh, of course you'll find some... every bell curve has its extremes. It isn't, however, the reason for independence being sought.

[FBM]

As a 'merkin, I am equally something towards or perhaps against England, Scotland and that other one, whazzis...Ireland or something?

[ronmcd]

I think that a lot of the antagonism (not in this thread, but more widespread) is due to the idea that some people see this as an anti-English thing, when it's no such thing.

I don't know. I'm sure there are lots of Scots that would vote yes for anti-English reasons alone. It's be the same in Northern Ireland and here in Wales too.

Yeah, I'd like to see any evidence at all for that. Are there anti English people in Scotland? Sure. There are bigots, racists, murderers and rapists too. But thats different from the independence campaign. IF the YES vote wins, it will win because the ordinary sensible people who live in Scotland want political control here. Including many English Welsh and Northern Irish people.

[ronmcd]

You separatists keep on with the "we" and "you". It's mindless bollocks.

Pathetic stone-age crap, worshipping a line drawn years ago by the the most powerful bandits of the day.

I'm trying to get you to actually think, but it seems to be a non-starter.

Troll.

You do realise that there are no Scots or English or Welsh? It's all in your sleepy heads.

Very like a fundie christian. Us and them all over again.

Political control, not ethnic nationalism. Do you see the difference?