or 
at this point. I think I'll just 
and 
and call it a night.Guns used for lawful self defense
Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
I don't know whether to or at this point. I think I'll just and and call it a night.
or at this point. I think I'll just and and call it a night.-
FBM
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
I think being able to set aside one's own cultural conditioning and look objectively and non-judgementally at other cultures is a facet of intelligence. Imposing one's own values in foreign contexts seems to stem from a certain lack of it, I think. If you're able to see things in a broad enough context, you'll be able to see how aspects of culture that initially seemed puzzling and irrational are actually reasonable adaptations to that environment. Why do Inuits choose to live in such a harsh environment? Why didn't they move south, where it's warmer and game is more plentiful? Are they crazy? Stupid? I think not. I think their ingenuity at adaptation made living there not much of an inconvenience. If you study the conditioning effects of their specific history, it's perfectly reasonable. Why do so many Americans have guns? If you study the conditioning effects of their specific history...etc.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
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Blind groper
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
It is evolution. Given time, perhaps the USA can evolve past its current primitive state.FBM wrote:Why do so many Americans have guns? If you study the conditioning effects of their specific history...etc.
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.
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FBM
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Oh, jeebus. Please don't go the Social Darwinism route.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
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Blind groper
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
OK. We will call it growth. Even an infant eventually masters potty training, and stops shitting in its own pants.FBM wrote:Oh, jeebus. Please don't go the Social Darwinism route.
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.
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FBM
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Well, that's a deeply enlightened intellectual approach. Have you tried writing that up in a sociology journal? 
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Except evolution is a Greedy Algorithm
Quick explanation:
Quick explanation:
So even assuming your vision of gun control or abolition (I'm not sure what you're for) is the global maximum, evolution will always find the local maximum and so what FBM said remains true. I think Jim was saying basically the same thing as well.
Starting at A, a greedy algorithm will find the local maximum at "m", oblivious of the global maximum at "M".
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FBM
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
It's interesting to me to see how many humanists abandon the humanist perspective when addressing their pet projects. 'Objectivity and cultural relativism be damned; they've got to change until they conform to what I say is right.'
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
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Blind groper
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
I have been very open about my feelings here.PordFrefect wrote: (I'm not sure what you're for)
There are times when firearms have a place. A hunting rifle. A hand gun in a police holster. Military weapons for defending your country.
There are also weapons that have no constructive value, and are purely destructive. The one I have focused on is hand guns owned and carried by civilians. Only the USA is silly enough to allow this to happen legally. End result is 8,000 hand gun homicides each year (half of all murders), with the United States having the highest murder rate of any western nation, by about 400% in most cases. It also results in 12,000 hand gun suicides, which are avoidable.
So my message is simply that hand guns should be restricted to the police and the military.
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.
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FBM
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Because what's right for NZ is right for the whole world. 
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
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Blind groper
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Not at all. The numbers speak for themselves. Do you like the fact that the USA has by far the highest number of murders per capita in the civilised world?FBM wrote:Because what's right for NZ is right for the whole world
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.
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FBM
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Think about that bias: "civilized." It reeks of cultural arrogance, and your statement only makes sense to those who buy into it. Where do you draw the line at which culture is "civilized" and which is "uncivilized"?Blind groper wrote:Not at all. The numbers speak for themselves. Do you like the fact that the USA has by far the highest number of murders per capita in the civilised world?FBM wrote:Because what's right for NZ is right for the whole world
It also ignores the need to justify with real data the implication that gun control is causally linked to murder rates. Attempts have been made by researchers, but if a verifiable 1:1 causal correlation has been found, I'm unaware of it. If you have it, please link me to it. I'm not being sarcastic, btw, I really would like to see it if it exists.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
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JimC
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
BG, it's probably not a useful idea to generalise, or to link specific mental conditions to individuals who own guns.Blind groper wrote:PordFrefect wrote: IQ tests, but mine was 139 when I was tested at age 18. I did only own one gun at the time tho.
You are in good company. The serial killer, Ted Bundy, was said to have an IQ of 140, essentially the same as yours.
The shortcoming in the cerebral department I was referring to is not IQ. It is more related to sanity.
If one is part of a gun-owning culture, one can be a sensible and responsible exemplar of such a culture. I may well think that the gun-owning culture of America is not one I prefer, and I think it has problematic consequences, but I'm not going to paint all gun-owners with a broad psychological brush...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!
And my gin!
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Blind groper
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
Some of my recent posts have been a bit tongue in cheek, and I am getting bites. Throw out a big enough bait and you get a big fish striking. Jim, as a good Aussi, living in one of the world's best fishing nations, that is a principle I am sure you are well aware of.
To FBM
There are heaps of gun statistics, which relate gun availability to both homicides and suicides. One reference is :
http://smartgunlaws.org/category/gun-st ... tatistics/
There are a wide range of data points that show what I am driving at. Like this quote:
"Abused women are five times more likely to be killed by their abuser if the abuser owns a firearm."
That is one of dozens of points which show that ready access to guns is a net harm.
Where they 'fall down' is the attempt to relate different gun control laws inside the USA to murder rates. These fail, because a local ordinance actually makes no difference. it is too easy for someone who wants a gun to simply cross a state line.
To FBM
There are heaps of gun statistics, which relate gun availability to both homicides and suicides. One reference is :
http://smartgunlaws.org/category/gun-st ... tatistics/
There are a wide range of data points that show what I am driving at. Like this quote:
"Abused women are five times more likely to be killed by their abuser if the abuser owns a firearm."
That is one of dozens of points which show that ready access to guns is a net harm.
Where they 'fall down' is the attempt to relate different gun control laws inside the USA to murder rates. These fail, because a local ordinance actually makes no difference. it is too easy for someone who wants a gun to simply cross a state line.
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.
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FBM
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense
In the US, gun availability is largely unaffected by gun control laws, as you yourself point out, and this is particularly true among the criminal-minded. Increasing gun control laws in a population where gun ownership is traditional and wise in light of the aforementioned criminal element will only serve to make criminals out of previously law-abiding citizens. If I go to Canada and smoke a joint, I'm not a criminal. I do the same thing in the US and I am. The act is the same, the existence of the law makes me a criminal, not genuine maladaptive behavior.
Again, we need a clear, verifiable 1:1 causal correlation between the existence of strict gun control laws and a decrease in homicide rates.
Again, we need a clear, verifiable 1:1 causal correlation between the existence of strict gun control laws and a decrease in homicide rates.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
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